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  1. #856
    Golux Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    My main objection is, Tony's past had been revisited many times since then, and it is very important to some storylines... ant it feels weird because that is NOT the current Tony's past... current Tony didn't found the Avengers together with Pym, Janet, Hulk and Thor; he isn't the adopted son of Howard Stark; he isn't the adopted brother of Arno Stark, or the biological son of Jude; he didn't study in Cambrige; he wasn't wounded in Korea or Vietnam or Afghanistan or whenever and he didn't work with Ho Yinsen to create the first Iron Man armor and escape; he didn't mess with the bomb that made Bruce Banner into Hulk and he never dated the Wasp while Hank Pym was in prison...

    The current Tony Stark is an idealized copy made by Franklin, but that is never acknowledged...
    But a Tony Stark did all those things and this Tony remembers doing all those things.

    Adding captions to say, "Hey, remember this terrible story that happened 25 years ago? Well, now you do! It doesn't actually have any effect on this current story, but we're bringing it up just to acknowledge it! Man, that was a bad idea, but we'll remind you of it every time Tony remembers something! -- Ed."

    It'd be sort of like, every time there's a flashback to a period before DOCTOR STRANGE 13 in 1976, adding a caption making sure people know that the entire Earth was destroyed and then re-created in super-fast time progression by Eternity, so the events that the current characters remember are actually an uncanny re-creation of the original events, not the original events, and the characters are all revamps, too. Or that all the other characters who came back from Heroes Reborn are also Franklin revamps, just revamps that are closer to the originals than Tony.

    And since Original Tony's corpse (well, the corpse of the re-creation of Tony from after DR. STRANGE 13) vanished, amid a bunch of Franklinpower, current Tony can actually be seen as a merging of Original Tony, Teen Tony and Heroes Reborn Tony, just as the Wasp has all her memories of Original Wasp (well, post-DS-13-re-creation Wasp) and the body of HR-Wasp, and Hawkeye has the memories or Original-but-actually-post-DS-13 Hawkeye and the auditory canals of HR Hawkeye which have been since redamaged, and...

    In the end, it's just continuity cholesterol that slows down a story without adding anything to it, so it makes more sense to ignore it unless bringing it up actually matters to the story at hand.

    Which is how most history gets handled in serial stories. You bring it up if it adds to the current story in a useful way.

    kdb
    Last edited by Kurt Busiek; 12-21-2021 at 12:16 AM.
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  2. #857
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Does any of that really matter since Hickman's Secret Wars? (it's an honest question, no snark here.) Didn't everything sort of reboot without rebooting back then?

    Peace

  3. #858
    Extraordinary Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Yeah i thought it was teen tony changed to adult tony by franklin. Man the crossing story was awful. It did give us a ultraforce crossover however.

    One thing is you think it would come up more that first tony killed a avenger and avengers staff. Poor yellowjacket was such a waste after she was wrote so well as a hero in gotg. Marvel really fridged her bad. Worse the avengers never really talked or cared about her after other then that jarvis back up story in the annual talking about it for a second. Rita even brings this up in dead avengers. We don't even know if she is still alive or not. Wish she would come back. She would be great in thunderbolts or a west coast avengers team.


    By the way mr Busiek. What is the avengers status on avengers like avengers forever songbird, heroes reborn thor (who died saving the real thor. Thor called him a true avenger) and the other hr avengers, the living iron man armor that went on avengers missions without tony, "nebula" who brainwashed the avengers into letting her be leader, the wildstorm heroes reborn crossover avengers, spider-skrull queen, doc ock spidey or anti-vision?

    What is their status as avengers today?
    Last edited by Gaastra; 12-21-2021 at 08:02 AM.

  4. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Yeah i thought it was teen tony changed to adult tony by franklin. Man the crossing story was awful. It did give us a ultraforce crossover however.

    One thing is you think it would come up more that first tony killed a avenger and avengers staff. Poor yellowjacket was such a waste after she was wrote so well as a hero in gotg. Marvel really fridged her bad. Worse the avengers never really talked or cared about her after other then that jarvis back up story in the annual talking about it for a second. Rita even brings this up in dead avengers. We don't even know if she is still alive or not. Wish she would come back. She would be great in thunderbolts or a west coast avengers team.


    By the way mr Busiek. What is the avengers status on avengers like avengers forever songbird, heroes reborn thor (who died saving the real thor. Thor called him a true avenger) and the other hr avengers, the living iron man armor that went on avengers missions without tony, "nebula" who brainwashed the avengers into letting her be leader, the wildstorm heroes reborn crossover avengers, spider-skrull queen, doc ock spidey or anti-vision?

    What is their status as avengers today?
    Wasn't Rita considered for Thunderbolts?

  5. #860
    Ghost Panther Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Does any of that really matter since Hickman's Secret Wars? (it's an honest question, no snark here.) Didn't everything sort of reboot without rebooting back then?

    Peace
    That's my thinking. But if Tony still has problems with alcoholism then the reboot went pretty far back.

  6. #861
    Golux Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    One thing is you think it would come up more that first tony killed a avenger and avengers staff.
    As I recall, that happened in a "near future" that never actually came to pass.

    By the way mr Busiek. What is the avengers status on avengers like avengers forever songbird,
    She's an Avenger in a potential future. Whether that future ever happens remains to be seen.

    heroes reborn thor (who died saving the real thor.
    Beats the crap out of me. An Avenger in a different reality?

    the living iron man armor that went on avengers missions without tony,
    Beats me. Did they ever officially induct the armor?

    "nebula" who brainwashed the avengers into letting her be leader,
    Not an Avenger. She did not get brought onto the team by the other Avengers; she voted herself in through mind-control, and she wasn't an Avenger at the time so her votes don't count.

    the wildstorm heroes reborn crossover avengers, spider-skrull queen, doc ock spidey or anti-vision?
    I don't even know who all of those characters are.

    What is their status as avengers today?
    You'd have to ask someone working on AVENGERS today, I'd think. It's not up to me any more.

    kdb
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  7. #862
    Golux Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Wasn't Rita considered for Thunderbolts?
    Yes, but untangling that mess would have bogged us down while we were trying to get started. We had enough other stuff to explain without trying to parse out how "our" Rita died in a possible future -- our possible future, her actual present, since she time-traveled to it.

    It was a tangled mess, so we turned Screaming Mimi into Songbird instead, which I think worked out well.

    kdb
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  8. #863
    Extraordinary Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    I don't even know who all of those characters are.

    Anti-vision is the evil gathers vision that spend about a year our time pretending to be the main universe vision in the 90s. (white body version) Spider-queen is the skrull queen spider-woman that was a member for maybe over two years our time in secret invasion posing as the real spider-woman. Doc ock took over spider-mans body and served a small time as a avenger.

    Wildstorm crossover was the odd crossover with heroes reborn and image that lead into heroes return. It had the heroes return versions mixed in with the real universe thor.

    From marvel database the avengers members were--

    Iron man
    Thor (real version)
    Scarlett witch
    Captain america
    Hellstrike
    Freefall (gen 13)
    Brass

    Served as avengers. This lead into the heroes return story.
    Last edited by Gaastra; 12-22-2021 at 07:25 PM.

  9. #864
    Golux Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Anti-vision is the evil gathers vision that spend about a year our time pretending to be the main universe vision in the 90s. (white body version) Spider-queen is the skrull queen spider-woman that was a member for maybe over two years our time in secret invasion posing as the real spider-woman. Doc ock took over spider-mans body and served a small time as a avenger.
    Anyone who served as an Avenger because the Avengers thought they were someone else, and the someone else was a member but the impostor didn't ever join themselves is an impostor, not an Avenger.

    Wildstorm crossover was the odd crossover with heroes reborn and image that lead into heroes return. It had the heroes return versions mixed in with the real universe thor.
    They were the Avengers of an alternate world. That's not the same organization as the Avengers of the main Marvel world.

    kdb
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  10. #865
    Kosher Feminist Shadowcat's Avatar
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    Good news! Jason Aaron’s taking on a lot of new projects! Maybe he’s dropping the Avengers!

  11. #866
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Good news! Jason Aaron’s taking on a lot of new projects! Maybe he’s dropping the Avengers!
    Yeah, definitly not good news for Punisher's fans from what I hear. But hurray for us!

    Peace

  12. #867
    Incredible Member strathcona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Good news! Jason Aaron’s taking on a lot of new projects! Maybe he’s dropping the Avengers!
    Keeping my fingers crossed.

  13. #868
    Astonishing Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    Marvel Doesn't Want You To Read The Best Avengers Story - But Why?
    https://www.cbr.com/marvel-doesnt-wa...vengers-story/

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