So, how SHOULD the BatVerse have been rebooted for the New 52?

[Dzetoun]

On recent threads a lot of conversation has revolved around how the BatVerse was adapted to the New 52, particularly the fact that the Batman line was only partly rebooted while the rest of the DCU, except for the Green Lantern line, underwent a hard reset. This has led to all kinds of trouble, like four Robins in five years, Batman Incorporated shoehorned into a supposedly new continuity, the age of Damian Wayne, and many other issues. So, how SHOULD the Batman line have been rebooted to make sense, or at least as much sense as one can ask of a comic book?

For ground rules, let's take it as a given that Morrison's run should somehow have been finished in the old continuity. Let's also take the five year timeline as a given. I, personally, also go with the idea that Batman only accepts apprentices starting at age 16. That's a judgment call, but I don't think modern concerns about child welfare and modern storytelling conventions allow for child sidekicks. Damian is an exception, being both Bruce's biological son and, more importantly, not really a child in many ways.

I see two patterns for a "logical" Bat Family at the dawn of the New 52:

1) Dick has just become Nightwing at the age of 21 or so. Jason Todd is a relatively new Robin. For Jason's personality you could go with Jason 1.0 or Jason 2.0 or some combination. I would prefer the physical appearance of Jason 1.0 in this scenario so as to further delineate him from Dick. Barbara could be Batgirl or Oracle as preferred, and Dick's history with the Titans would exist or not as preferred. Other than Bruce, Alfred, and Jim Gordon, all other members of the Batfamily would be absent.

2) The only scenario that reasonably preserves Tim Drake as Robin at the dawn of the New 52 is to go the route if the DCAU and eliminate Jason Todd from continuity altogether. All else is as above, except now Tim is the relatively new Robin, only the second, as Dick settles into his identity as Nightwing.

[MajorHoy]

On recent threads a lot of conversation has revolved around how the BatVerse was adapted to the New 52, particularly the fact that the Batman line was only partly rebooted while the rest of the DCU, except for the Green Lantern line, underwent a hard reset. This has led to all kinds of trouble, like four Robins in five years, Batman Incorporated shoehorned into a supposedly new continuity, the age of Damian Wayne, and many other issues. So, how SHOULD the Batman line have been rebooted to make sense, or at least as much sense as one can ask of a comic book?

For ground rules, let's take it as a given that Morrison's run should somehow have been finished in the old continuity. Let's also take the five year timeline as a given. I, personally, also go with the idea that Batman only accepts apprentices starting at age 16. That's a judgment call, but I don't think modern concerns about child welfare and modern storytelling conventions allow for child sidekicks. Damian is an exception, being both Bruce's biological son and, more importantly, not really a child in many ways.

I see two patterns for a "logical" Bat Family at the dawn of the New 52:

1) Dick has just become Nightwing at the age of 21 or so. Jason Todd is a relatively new Robin. For Jason's personality you could go with Jason 1.0 or Jason 2.0 or some combination. I would prefer the physical appearance of Jason 1.0 in this scenario so as to further delineate him from Dick. Barbara could be Batgirl or Oracle as preferred, and Dick's history with the Titans would exist or not as preferred. Other than Bruce, Alfred, and Jim Gordon, all other members of the Batfamily would be absent.

2) The only scenario that reasonably preserves Tim Drake as Robin at the dawn of the New 52 is to go the route if the DCAU and eliminate Jason Todd from continuity altogether. All else is as above, except now Tim is the relatively new Robin, only the second, as Dick settles into his identity as Nightwing.

To heck with the "apprentices" rule. At the start of the New 52, Dick should have been taking on the identity of Nightwing for the very first time; no period where Dick "filled in" for Batman any longer.

Also at the beginning of the New 52, either have Jason just starting out as the second Robin, or let Batman just learn he has a son (Damian) and Damian becomes the second Robin.

Tim, unfortunately, really doesn't fit in with a shortened timeline for Batman and Robin.

[Batman Forever]

If they were going to actually reboot it (which would have been preferable to where we are now), it should have just been back to dick and bruce, and babs out there somewhere.

Any more than that, and you've got a bunch of characters laying around that you haven't properly introduced or developed, and who haven't earned the place in the story organically.

This is assuming of course an arbitrary five year timeline, which I will call idiotic until the day I day.

BTW, these appreciation threads are ridiculous and make it tedious to find a thread worth reading.

[godisawesome]

Roughly the same way it was transformed after Crisis on Infinite Earths; few to no immediate changes, and you let the guys writing the books decide what to change and to do so by creating new stories and flashbacks at their leisure so they can properly craft it and determine what needs to be changed and adjusted. And when everyone else insists it's only been five years, you just say "some time ago" or "then."

...Which is for the most part exactly what happened. Nightwing, Damian, Bruce, and Jason and Batwoman all had any major changes revealed later, while Barbra's return could have been mandated in the old school continuity and Simone was left in charge of her development.

The biggest disappointments for the Bat-family comes from those affiliates who were distanced by editorial and given wholesale reinventions to appease the rest of the New 52 or to try and go Silver Age on the audience. Tim got the worst renewed origin, with most of the context explicitly showing editorial made demands to try and shift the character more in line with their vision of yet another X-Men style New Teen Titans knockoff. And Huntress had a well received and loved miniseries while written as Bertinelli, only to have the core premise of her new Wayne persona remove her from that context and immediately start hurting some of the character's credibility (mostly by trying to sweep Bertinelli under the rug rather rudely instead of trying to have their cake and eat it too, which the whole multiverse theory actually allows.)

Batman's building on forward momentum since the early Silver Age and with Eternal coming out now, we're already kind of sweeping some of the mandated changes away.

And now that Steph's making her way back from limbo, I'm expecting Cass to do likewise. She has before, and I deeply disagree with the idea that the comics universe Bat family should ever "regress" back to a core group. Clearly, an expanded family is profitable for DC; just look at the size and success of the Bat-line compared to its opposites. And I deny anyone to say that a three member family is more engaging, dynamic or interesting as a generational one that's an extended family.

Introducing the team slowly makes sense for a new media audience, but comic fans don't require it. Besides, all media sense the 90s has displayed a four+ Batfamily. Why should you move backwards if the franchise shows no need for it?

[Penguin Truth]

Well, the biggest problem was that "six years" bullcrap. Even just a few more years and we could neatly fit most of the important events in the Batman history into the new timeline.

Any timeline which removes or marginalizes Timothy Drake is unacceptable, by the way.

[Kingcrimsonprog]

I think they should have done one of two things:

a) Started from the very start. Issue 1 is the first night Batman goes out. Everything is new. They pick up all the other characthers along the way. They can get through Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian over several years. They can base their new storylines on old succesful ones, modernizing them and cutting out the fat and contradictions etc. They find a smart way to work in all the many villains, lawyers, mayors, cops, mobsters, wives, girlfriends, military officials, scientists, doctors, coroners, reporters etc. that are important, so that everyone is in Gotham and it all makes sense.

They pick characterizations, histories and futures once and for all and every writer has to stick to it or else have a big "elseworlds" sticker on the front of the book.

Or

B) They start a new issue one, but they have a serious sit down and decide what stories did and didn't happen. Straighten it all out in a big official giant text-dump bible that is available online and printed in the annual, and everyone fans and writers alike can refer to it. They work out the timeline thoroughly. They pick characterizations, histories and futures once and for all and every writer has to stick to it or else have a big "elseworlds" sticker on the front of the book.

It would cut down on creativity sure, but everything would be tasteful and make sense and there would be no more wondering what counts.

[Star-Lord]

It's weird how compressed it got, but I feel, with Batman Eternal, that every member of the Bat family is finding they're groove. Spoiler is returning, Tim is an awesome detective again, etc. Batman and Robin has been fantastic, so I'm happy. Batman has been pretty good too.

[Kid A]

Batman:
- Inc finishes in the old continuity
- Snyder would be writing Batman and Detective Comics. Detective Comics is set in Zero Year for its first 12 issues before a new creative team takes over

Robins:
- Dick Grayson was Robin, forms a close friendship with Cyborg the youngest JL member, and they formed a Teen Titans group (currently disbanded), and he becomes Nightwing
- Jason Todd can follow the Under the Red Hood movie canon, so he was Robin, died, and recently returned to Gotham in a big splash. Forms the Outlaws team later.
- Tim Drake is the new Robin, after Under the Red Hood's events already happened. Later he forms Young Justice, a spiritual heir to Teen Titans, and leaves Gotham.
- Damian can be introduced down the line but not right away.

Batgirls:
- Barbara Gordon can be Batgirl, but let's get rid of The Killing Joke altogether. I would basically have her act as Oracle, except she's also physically active and wears a Bat-suit.
- Cassandra Cain as Black Bat?
- Steph would be introduced along the same lines they're doing now in Eternal.

[Stormcrow]

They should've just done Batman Inc. as a requiem for the pre-New 52 Batman continuity and really streamline things for the relaunch. If they were going to kill Damian so soon into the new continuity anyway, no point in bringing him into it in the first place.

With Robin, I'd prefer it if they had gone the Animated Series route and merged Jason Todd and Tim Drake, while keeping Dick as Nightwing. It's the only way it could fit within the compressed timeline. And those two got the worst end of the deal as far as origins go in the new continuity, so good riddance.

And if they were going to go with Barbara as Batgirl, don't shoehorn The Killing Joke into her history if she was never Oracle. Just let her be Batgirl. Having her going back to crimefighting after she spent years in a wheelchair is not only unbelievable but makes her seem kinda irresponsible.

Maybe not have two Katherine Kanes around, too? If Batman Inc. is out of the picture, just let Kate be the first and only Batwoman.

That's pretty much it, I'm happy with them introducing Stephanie later on and going back to the roots of her character. Would've liked the same for Cassandra, too.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Timeline would be significantly longer. Batman will have been Batman for 10, or 11 years at the start of the New 52.

Dick would have formed the Teen Titans long ago, and have had a long relationship with Cyborg, Donna and Wally.

Jason would be a mix of New 52 and the movie. Movie would be the origin until he got resurrected, which it then switches to New 52. Keeep thhe movie's return to Gotham parts, though.

Tim Drake would not exist.

Damian would never have died, as Inc would be out of continuity.

Helena Bertinelli would be the one and only Huntress. Wayne would be in Earth 2 until the big Jusitce League crossover.

The Batgirl situation would be the same as pre-New 52.

Catwoman's solo book would be good.

[RobinFan4880]

The only issue with Batman is that they did not put thought into explaining how Batman acquired so many allies in such a short amount of time.

We assume Batman started crime fighting in year -6. Soon after he first encounters Ra's and Talia, leading to the latter secretly creating Damian.

Dick rises in year -5, with Batgirl appearing soon after as an independent vigilante (soon brought under Bruce's wing).

In year -4, other kids try to become vigilantes as well, the most prominent of ones are Jason and Tim. Bruce takes both kids in. Robin becomes a shared mantle between the three boys, depending on who gets to go out crime fighting with Bruce (i.e. Monday its Dick, Tuesday its Jason, etc.). Barbara is shot by the Joker.

Jason is killed by the Joker in year -3. Dick leaves because he blames Bruce for letting Jason die. Dick becomes Nightwing. Tim sticks around but changes his super hero identity to Red Robin so as to honor Jason.

Batwoman first appears in year -2.

In year -1 Damian is revealed, Bruce dies, Dick becomes Batman, Tim leaves the manor, Damian becomes Robin, Jason reveals himself to the world as the Red Hood.

A few months before the the start of Batman #1 Bruce returns to life, takes back the Batman mantle and founds Batman Inc. Dick becomes Nightwing again. Barbara has surgery and is able to fight crime once more as Batgirl.

[CrazyOldHermit]

I have no problem with them starting six years into Batman's career. A problem Crisis had was when that continuity started Batman had been around for ten years. At the time it was alright because milestone events were few and far between (the big ones were Dick leaving for College and Dick being replaced by Jason). But when the 90s rolled around and we got event after event after event it created a serious problem: If each event is a major Earth shattering consequences-will-never-be-the-same deal then it is harder to compress them. It's very hard to accept that Knightfall, Contagion, Legacy and No Man's Land took place in less than a span of a few years and yet they couldn't really be ignored because of how catastrophic they were. By starting with Batman so long in the tooth they left plenty of room for a history that didn't need it and little room for the decades of history that was yet to come.

In the "present day" (Year Six) Dick would be eighteen and have just started attending college. His time as Robin is nearly done and he is part timing it. His adventures with Batman are exclusive to Batman & Robin. Batman is still the flagship book telling the major modern arcs. Tec is dedicated to the past, filling in the last six years with year-long arcs starting with Zero Year and working its way up through Batman's new history. By the end of it Batman's entire career would be cataloged, forming a solid narrative from beginning to present.

[MajorHoy]

Well, the biggest problem was that "six years" bullcrap. Even just a few more years and we could neatly fit most of the important events in the Batman history into the new timeline.

Any timeline which removes or marginalizes Timothy Drake is unacceptable, by the way.

Well, what to me really marginalized Tim was

[Penguin Truth]

Tim Drake would not exist.

Damian would never have died

NOPE.



My timeline would be 10 years long.


YEAR 1/ZERO YEAR/WHATEVER - Snyder's "Zero Year"; Batman begins

YEAR 2 - Batman first encounters Joker; Dick Grayson becomes Robin; Batman first encounters Ra's al Ghul and Talia Ghul; Damian is conceived consensually by Bruce and Talia, but is manipulated in and out of the womb and put on the backburner as a project

YEAR 3 - Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face; Barbara Gordon becomes Batgirl; Harley Quinzel becomes Harley Quinn

YEAR 4 - More stuff happens

YEAR 5 - Bane first learns of Batman from Santa Prisca, obsesses; Joker fish incident

YEAR 6 - Dick Grayson retires from being Robin, becomes Nightwing; Jason Todd becomes new Robin; Black Mask first appears

YEAR 7 - The Killing Joke, with Batgirl being crippled; Jason Todd is murdered

YEAR 8 - Tim Drake becomes Robin

YEAR 9 - Knightfall (Bane comes to Gotham, breaks the Bat, Dick Grayson fills in for Bruce)

YEAR 10 -Bruce learns he has a child, Damian Wayne, who assists Dick while he plays Batman as Bruce retrains himself with Tim's help

And then the New 52 stuff. Bruce returns to his Batman role, Dick returns to his Nightwing role, Tim becomes Red Robin because Damian is Robin now. Though I'm pretty sure this would mean that Damian was only eight at his death.

[nepenthes]

I'll come back and try do up an outline that's within PenguinTruths givens (which seem arbitrary and entirely unsatisfactory to to me :wink however my first thought is: why reboot at all? Indeed my ideal reboot would be to renumber, relaunch, fresh story arcs etc yet leave everything that came before available for the picking.

I think the greater number of new readers are attracted to Batman's rich history more than anything, and what the New 52 did is actually leave the backlog more confusing than ever. Achieving the opposite of what DC intended - so yeah, high five!

BTW, these appreciation threads are ridiculous and make it tedious to find a thread worth reading.

I hear you, however, the board is still new and overtime most of the Appreciation threads will drop off the front page, and until then I'm wary of closing threads other people seem to enjoy and are driving to overall activity in these early days. Best solution in the meantime? Is to start a few discussion threads of your own .