Poison Ivy 2021 Appreciation: Year of Queen Ivy

**prepmaster** · 04-21-2021, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by kjn

The video also misses another important factor, and that is for people who are exploited or suppressed, the person striking back is often viewed as a hero, even if that person is not nice or good. One can call this the Thelma & Louise dynamic, though it is far older than that—John Brown is a famous real-world example; Spartacus another. Both Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy fit that pattern very well—they are free from the shackles that society placed on them, and liberated themselves from abusive relationships of their own power.

The relationship between Harley and Ivy is that something to prop up Harley. Harley is a character that is defined by her abusive relationship with the Joker. Once the fandom wants to Harley get away from that, there is no reason to put her in another relationship with another controlling partner. However Ivy is not a saint. If you go with her new 52 origins, she was a child who suffered abuse from her controlling father. Then with the post crisis backstory, she was seduced and poisoned by a man. These tragedies propel her to become a manipulative and violent individual. Ivy went from being a victim to being a victimizer. Ivy sees people for how useful they can be to her or how fitting they are as victims for her poisoning (and her other painful killing methods). Look at how she poisoned the BoP to make them work for her and killed the male drug dealer that traveled along with BoP members. The relationship between Harley and Ivy is depicted to be what they are because again, its a popular ship and DC has to change Ivy for that relationship to work in a healthy way. But the nature of Batman world is that it is full of broken people. People that can never let go of their traumatic past just like how Bruce can never let go of the night where he was victimized by a criminal. Is Ivy incapable of caring for a human? No. Ivy can be very protective to the thing or the people she cares about. But there is always that brokeness in the character that should make her not be able to have totally healthy relationships with others. In Gotham Knights, the orphan kids that she took in during NML ended up poisoned by her. Ivy unconciously poisoned the kids that she took care of.

Batman is drawn to broken people not because they are as broken as him but because he wants to heal them, he wants them to not be as broken as him. Its why i was frustrated when i saw Ram V write Batman say to Catwoman to steal something important because thats the last thing Batman would want to say to Catwoman. Batman knows Catwoman is a thief that finds enjoyment in stealing from others. The difference between Batman and his villains is how he copes with his own trauma versus how his villains cope with their traumas / mental illnesses. The traumas, mental illnesses that the villains suffer from exacerbate their evil while the trauma that Batman suffers from makes him want to prevent others from suffering like he does. When villains suffer from depression, they cope with it by committing more crimes because the villains find the most enjoyment out of committing crimes than doing other stuffs.

**Agent Z** · 04-21-2021, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by kjn

So why post it here?

I checked the transcript, and I think the analysis in the video misses the mark pretty thoroughly why a lot of people like Poison Ivy as a character. Many of those fans are highly critical not only of DC for not using Poison Ivy enough, but also of how DC uses Poison Ivy. It also accepts all the poor takes on Poison Ivy, takes them as given, and uses those to attack the character.

The video also misses another important factor, and that is for people who are exploited or suppressed, the person striking back is often viewed as a hero, even if that person is not nice or good. One can call this the Thelma & Louise dynamic, though it is far older than thatÂ—John Brown is a famous real-world example; Spartacus another. Both Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy fit that pattern very wellÂ—they are free from the shackles that society placed on them, and liberated themselves from abusive relationships of their own power.

While this has some good points, I think it should also be acknowledged that Harley and Ivy are still white, cisgendered women in a climate where such characters are still treated considerably better than those outside that demographic. Compare how much humanity Harley and Ivy are treated with to, say, Talia al Ghul who is usually either a fetishized Dragon Lady or exotic lover stereotype. Would Ivy and Harley have been afforded such complexity if not for their race and their being cisgender? Let's also not forget that Ivy and Harley have also harmed women in-universe like Selina or female members of the Batfamily and have been used to marginalize other women.

To be clear, I am an Ivy fan but I do think this is something to consider.

**kjn** · 04-21-2021, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Agent Z

While this has some good points, I think it should also be acknowledged that Harley and Ivy are still white, cisgendered women in a climate where such characters are still treated considerably better than those outside that demographic. Compare how much humanity Harley and Ivy are treated with to, say, Talia al Ghul who is usually either a fetishized Dragon Lady or exotic lover stereotype. Would Ivy and Harley have been afforded such complexity if not for their race and their being cisgender? Let's also not forget that Ivy and Harley have also harmed women in-universe like Selina or female members of the Batfamily and have been used to marginalize other women.

To be clear, I am an Ivy fan but I do think this is something to consider.

Certainly. But I think any such analysis shouldn't be predicated not on that Poison Ivy is treated too well, but on why (say) Talia al Ghul or Vixen are not allowed the same complexity as (say) Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy.

Ill treatment or poor handling of a character should never be excused or justified by that another character is treated worse!

**marhawkman** · 04-21-2021, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by kjn

The video also misses another important factor, and that is for people who are exploited or suppressed, the person striking back is often viewed as a hero, even if that person is not nice or good. One can call this the Thelma & Louise dynamic, though it is far older than that—John Brown is a famous real-world example; Spartacus another. Both Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy fit that pattern very well—they are free from the shackles that society placed on them, and liberated themselves from abusive relationships of their own power.

Or Robin Hood. None of what made Robin Hood unique (in or out of that time period) was a good thing. But he was the lesser of two evils. Thus the commoners liked him because his presence (or at least the idea of it) was somewhat beneficial to them.

**signalman112** · 04-22-2021, 10:27 PM

Splash page from WORLD'S FINEST COMICS #252. Jack Abel.

WFC252.jpg

**marhawkman** · 04-23-2021, 11:39 AM

well that's something you don't see often.

**MajorHoy** · 04-23-2021, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by signalman112

Splash page from WORLD'S FINEST COMICS #252. Jack Abel.

WFC252.jpg

This was shortly after DC had transitioned back to featuring (then) present-day Wonder Woman on Earth-1 in stories again after the period where the Wonder Woman comic book and her feature in Dollar-sized World's Finest Comics had instead starred the Earth-2 Wonder Woman back in the WWII era (because the first season of the Wonder Woman TV show was set in the first half of the 1940s).

**Confuzzled** · 04-24-2021, 02:16 PM

Jenny Frisson variant for Catwoman #33

**prepmaster** · 04-24-2021, 02:24 PM