Superman Villains Appreciation 2021

[Vordan]

Can Toyman carry a movie guys? Can Metallo without Lex involved?

Metallo easily could if you make it a movie about him as an agent of Sam Lane’s Project 7734. While Clark is hunting Intergang, Lane and Corbyn would be hunting him because the military fears him. Captain Luthor in S&L honestly has a lot of the base concepts that I think would work well for Metallo, I was actually hoping it was a new take on him when the trailer first got revealed.

[Mutant God]

Can Toyman carry a movie guys? Can Metallo without Lex involved?

Sure, in Metallo's case just replaced Luthor with Sam Lane/Military, Superman vs Metallo could kind of become Superman vs Terminator lol.

Toyman's movie would probably be his toys being used as weapons by several people including children while he dodges Superman or maybe he'll be the main villain until the Big Bad is reveal like Scarecrow or Bane, or he'll part main villain like Two-Face/Riddler and Poison Ivy/Mr. Freeze. Actually like the Schumacher movies have Toy Man and Metallo team up with Toyman upgrading Metallo's armor and treating him like a toy with new accessories

[Quinlan58]

Metallo can. It's Superman vs The Government by way of a Terminator slowly losing his sanity.

Toyman? As cool as he is, I don't think he could. Or rather, I think he could but no one would invest money on it because it'd be too minor of a story, whereas both of the Superman live action movies this century and seemingly also the coming reboot are clearly intended as major statements on the character.

[godisawesome]

Here’s how I would package most of the “B-List” Superman villains as Big Bads:

Metallo - as other have said, as long as *someone* rebuilds him as a cyborg and he remains practically intelligent, you can have him as a Big Bad, whether as someone who just wants to kill Superman, or is the forerunner of Metropolis becoming something akin to a Cyberpunk-esque city of Superman doesn’t get on the ball. Metallo as simply the deadliest criminal in a city of Apokilips-supplied Intergang members, Brainiac-13 virus outbreaks, and STAR Labs experiments can offer an awesome challenge. I prefer the idea of Metallo being an Intergang member who muscles his way to the top after his upgrade over the military idea, but that’s because I love the idea of Metallo being a smart thug rather than a soldier.

Parasite - Honestly, I feel like incorporating the idea of him absorbing intelligence as well as power and strength would make him terrifying, because you could have him briefly combine greater strength and smarts than Superman in a harrowing sequence. I would want Lex present, not as his boss, but as a supporting character, so that Parasite could get a taste of Lex’s intelligence and misanthropy for some fun.

Bizarro - He’s an escaped B-Zero clone from Cadmus Labs, that’s degrading slowly but has befriended the blind Lucy Lane; Superman’s challenge is more one of trying to minimize the damage while comforting Bizarro as he deteriorates.

Toyman- surprisingly, I think this one is simple; pitch the story more as a mystery Clark and Lois have to investigate vs just a villain seeking out Superman.

[Myskin]

I am not interested in fanfiction (don't read it, don't write it), but in the past, just for fun, I tried to imagine a possible setup for Superman stories in which every main villain could find his/her own space. I am under the impression that the setup and the villains could be somehow more important than Superman himself - once you have Metropolis and the villains it's somehow easier to make Superman work.

Anyway, as some forum pals knows, cyberpunk is a pet peeve of mine and I had imagined Metropolis as a huge city - almost a state in itself - with a strong class division and a cyberpunk mood. Basically you have the elite, with its first-class citizens (and the most first-class of them all is Luthor, of course) and the people living in the slums, with an extremely thin middle class in between, to which people such as Perry White and Lois Lane belong. I had read somewhere that Calisota - the imaginary state where Scrooge McDuck lives - can be considered independent from the United States at a legislative level (it has its own embassy, etc.), and I thought that something similar may be done with Metropolis, which exists in its own legislative bubble. The idea was that Metropolis is basically an open-air experiment of what cities in the future could be like, and Superman would actually have a reason to be there rather than in other countries where he might probably be more useful. Everything which really counts in the world (technology, implementation of economic theories) sooner or later passes through Metropolis and Superman makes sure that everything goes well to preserve the future of the entire world. It would basically be like Scrapyard/Zalem in Alita: Last Order mixed with Fritz Lang's Metropolis, with Superman in the middle trying to make everything work, preventing people from killing each other.

Anyway, I had a couple of ideas about Metallo. If this had been a comic book series, we would have had the first stories about Metallo as Luthor's cybernetically augmented bodyguard, until one day he was considered outdated and basically discarded (the legislative bubble actually would allow for some characters - cyborgs, artificially created creatures, etc. - not to be considered as human beings). So I had this idea that Metallo could find refuge in Metropolis' dumpster (basically a city within a city), become the king of all the discarded, Z-list citizens (homeless, cyborgs) and have his own "kingdom" in the dumpster. He wouldn't necessarily be a villain in every single story - I imagined him similarly to the Bowery King from John Wick. Occasionally Superman and Metallo could also work together against Luthor.

I also thought that Mercy Graves could be Luthor's new, more lethal and cybernetically improved bodyguard. There would be a visual contrast between the rustier, heavier, clinking body of Metallo and Mercy, who could be sleeker and thinner, with blades coming out from her arms - something similar to a robotic mantis. Since we have had many different versions of Mercy I also thought that Luthor could have different "Mercys", uploading the mind of the original Mercy into a new body each time she gets destroyed.

I also thought that there could be different rumors, maybe also a recurring joke, about the reason why Luthor is bald - a meteorite shower, an experiment gone wrong - until Luthor himself would reveal during an interview that he is actually just balding and shaves his head every day, so maybe the rumors where spread by Luthor himself in the first place just to make his shadow looming larger on the citizens of Metropolis. But there would have been a final twist: after the interview - we, the readers, would have found out that the razor which Luthor uses to shave his head is actually the same one which he used to slit his father's throat years before. Which means that every day Luthor shaves his head to remind himself of that first killing he is still unpunished for.

I also thought of a Luthor story in which some of the highest-class citizens of Metropolis go to a private party and in the middle of it Luthor says something like: "Can I have your attention, please?" and points a gun at the mayor's head in front of everybody. So the entire story would be a long monologue about Luthor explaining that the mayor has done something Luthor doesn't like and is about to kill him in front of all of the people. At first the rich guests would obviously be horrified, but while the monologue goes on, Luthor clearly explains in detail that his interests are so strictly linked to theirs that it's simply not in their best interest to stop him or press charges against him. Their fortune would be irreparably damaged or, who knows, they could get killed themselves. So basically Luthor's speech would turn all of the guests into Luthor's accomplices, because after Luthor blows the mayor's head - yes, it happens - everyone would tacitly agree on one version, that officially the mayor has just committed suicide in front of everybody. The idea was that Luthor is such an alpha shark that he wouldn't be afraid of killing someone publicly - I think that this idea came to me from a Sin City story, maybe That Yellow Bastard, in which a character talks about doing something similar.

I also had this idea about the Parasite as some kind of Cronenberg horror, basically a huge snail/human hybrid, so fat and gross that he can barely move and lives underground in the sewer, but who can still interfere with surface levels because he somehow gives birth to this disgusting little worms which can penetrate people's bodies and control them.

And another idea of the Toyman who wouldn't actually be a Toymaker, but a high-tech genius who creates cybernetic "dolls" with an imprint of human mind which are sold as sex slaves - "toys" - to rich people (I have taken this idea from the gynoids in Ghost in the Shell 2: https://youtu.be/oI-ASO-ypxk?t=194 ). The idea was that even if these dolls partially have human feelings they actually don't have any rights because they are artificial, which could be an interesting dilemma for Supes.

And so on and on...

[Vordan]

Interesting ideas. I’m a fan of cyberpunk Metropolis as well.



For Metallo though I think that military connection is key for a couple reasons.
1. It allows you to compare and contrast with Superman as an icon of “The American Way”. For all the patriotic associations, Superman has lines he won’t cross and stuff he refuses to do, despite what the government wants. TDKR turning him into a WMD is not supposed to be how he should be, but it makes for a fascinating exploration of the nature of patriotism. So use Metallo to explore that. He’s the military’s “Superman”, what they want Supes to be, a weapon they can aim and fire at will on their enemies.
2. It makes Metallo a more well rounded fleshed out character. He’s not just a psychotic criminal or a greedy underling, he’s a genuine patriot who believes that he’s doing what’s in the best interests of his country. That he gives body and soul to stop a perceived threat but is then basically cast aside once Supes and the govt reach an uneasy truce makes him all the more tragic, a way to be contemporary in how we treat soldiers without being too heavy handed imo.
3. When Metallo inevitably goes rogue after being treated like crap it puts Supes in a tough situation. If he can stop Corbyn what does he do with him then? If he just turns him over, the army isn’t going to just leave him in a cell. They’re absolutely going to try to use him to their own ends, so what does Clark do? How does he actually ensure justice when legally Corbyn belongs to the military? It’s an interesting conundrum.

[Myskin]

Interesting ideas. I’m a fan of cyberpunk Metropolis as well.

For Metallo though I think that military connection is key for a couple reasons.
1. It allows you to compare and contrast with Superman as an icon of “The American Way”. For all the patriotic associations, Superman has lines he won’t cross and stuff he refuses to do, despite what the government wants. TDKR turning him into a WMD is not supposed to be how he should be, but it makes for a fascinating exploration of the nature of patriotism. So use Metallo to explore that. He’s the military’s “Superman”, what they want Supes to be, a weapon they can aim and fire at will on their enemies.
2. It makes Metallo a more well rounded fleshed out character. He’s not just a psychotic criminal or a greedy underling, he’s a genuine patriot who believes that he’s doing what’s in the best interests of his country. That he gives body and soul to stop a perceived threat but is then basically cast aside once Supes and the govt reach an uneasy truce makes him all the more tragic, a way to be contemporary in how we treat soldiers without being too heavy handed imo.
3. When Metallo inevitably goes rogue after being treated like crap it puts Supes in a tough situation. If he can stop Corbyn what does he do with him then? If he just turns him over, the army isn’t going to just leave him in a cell. They’re absolutely going to try to use him to their own ends, so what does Clark do? How does he actually ensure justice when legally Corbyn belongs to the military? It’s an interesting conundrum.

I actually had a similar idea about Metallo, which could take place in the same universe.
But I would have made him both a psycho AND a patriot. Basically I had thought of him as the soldier US intelligence uses for all the black operations, but he also actually enjoys killing and abusing people. However, he is so good at completing the missions that the army turns a blind eye on all the "collateral damages". So I thought that an interesting idea could be about Superman trying to interfere with an operation and complete a mission with no bloodshed and BEFORE Metallo completes it, and Superman would actually succeed at the end. But he wouldn't actually stop Metallo forever - at the end of the story he would still be the army's secret golden boy and Superman would also find himself at odds with military authorities. I actually envisioned him as the embodiment of some of the worst aspects of US army (Operation Condor, Vietnam, etc) and somehow similar to Captain Kilgore from Coppola's movie Apocalypse Now.
I like the other version a bit better because I like to limit the worldbuilding to one place or one city.

I had also thought of a more sympathetic version of Brainiac. I had this idea that Brainiac - who, in my version, would be 100% robotic - has this huge room inside his ship where he keeps the remnants of Bryak, his original world, which he is trying to recreate, and a "seed " - basically a huge technoorganic plant which is growing inside the heart of the ship. In my mind, Brainiac had been given by his creators the mission to recreate Bryak before it was destroyed millions of years ago, but the remnants were so few and discarded that he never actually succeeded. So basically I would make him a slightly more tragic character because, even if he is robotic, what is trying to do is giving his artificial life a meaning, so to say. All of his evil deeds and "collections" are actually part of this desperate research about trying to find something, anything, which could help him recreate Bryak.

But I had also thought that there may be some secret connections between Brainiac and the New Gods. Maybe because of the three-diode symbols on his forehead, which reminds me of similar motifs in Kirby's characters.

[kalai]

So they can do a story of Multiversal Legion of Parasites,
in the same vein of Morlun in Spider-Verse,
in Bendis's Action Comic, there was a Parasite who did absorb their dimension's Superman,
so they can do something like that, but with a bunch of Parasites hunting Superman across the Multiverse,
and the main world's Parasite can decide whose side he want to be on.

Just some random thoughts.

[Vordan]

I actually had a similar idea about Metallo, which could take place in the same universe.
But I would have made him both a psycho AND a patriot. Basically I had thought of him as the soldier US intelligence uses for all the black operations, but he also actually enjoys killing and abusing people. However, he is so good at completing the missions that the army turns a blind eye on all the "collateral damages". So I thought that an interesting idea could be about Superman trying to interfere with an operation and complete a mission with no bloodshed and BEFORE Metallo completes it, and Superman would actually succeed at the end. But he wouldn't actually stop Metallo forever - at the end of the story he would still be the army's secret golden boy and Superman would also find himself at odds with military authorities. I actually envisioned him as the embodiment of some of the worst aspects of US army (Operation Condor, Vietnam, etc) and somehow similar to Captain Kilgore from Coppola's movie Apocalypse Now.
I like the other version a bit better because I like to limit the worldbuilding to one place or one city.

Corben being someone who enjoys violence and is psychotic is something I do think works, but I don’t think it should be shown in terms of him cackling as he mows people down. Moreso I think (sticking with him as the military’s version of Superman) that he’s a guy who doesn’t really care about collateral damage akin to Cavill in Man of Steel. If you asked him, he’d deny enjoying the carnage of battle, but he’s a little too trigger happy to buy that in my take.

(This was a cool look and powerset even if I didn’t like the origin).



Remember when Metallo beat up Batman and Superman had to save him? And then Metallo kicked both of their asses? Fun times. Shows he can be a serious threat when writers actually treat him as such.

[Gaius]

Interesting ideas. I’m a fan of cyberpunk Metropolis as well.



For Metallo though I think that military connection is key for a couple reasons.
1. It allows you to compare and contrast with Superman as an icon of “The American Way”. For all the patriotic associations, Superman has lines he won’t cross and stuff he refuses to do, despite what the government wants. TDKR turning him into a WMD is not supposed to be how he should be, but it makes for a fascinating exploration of the nature of patriotism. So use Metallo to explore that. He’s the military’s “Superman”, what they want Supes to be, a weapon they can aim and fire at will on their enemies.
2. It makes Metallo a more well rounded fleshed out character. He’s not just a psychotic criminal or a greedy underling, he’s a genuine patriot who believes that he’s doing what’s in the best interests of his country. That he gives body and soul to stop a perceived threat but is then basically cast aside once Supes and the govt reach an uneasy truce makes him all the more tragic, a way to be contemporary in how we treat soldiers without being too heavy handed imo.
3. When Metallo inevitably goes rogue after being treated like crap it puts Supes in a tough situation. If he can stop Corbyn what does he do with him then? If he just turns him over, the army isn’t going to just leave him in a cell. They’re absolutely going to try to use him to their own ends, so what does Clark do? How does he actually ensure justice when legally Corbyn belongs to the military? It’s an interesting conundrum.

Interesting. Kind of gives me Robocop vibes just swap out private business with the government.

Even though his more famous look riffs on the Terminator.

[Vordan]

His New Krypton look is probably his best comic look. First time I saw it I don’t think I liked it but it’s growing on me.

Interesting. Kind of gives me Robocop vibes just swap out private business with the government.

Even though his more famous look riffs on the Terminator.

Damn you just made me realize that’s what they were drawing on for his Rebirth look:


If they had given him the helmet too and bulked him up a little, I think the Rebirth look would’ve been perfect actually!

[Vordan]

The New Krypton look

[kalai]

The New Krypton look

I always thought this was a bit too Silver-Age-ish,
they could have made a more modern design.

[Vordan]

I always thought this was a bit too Silver-Age-ish,
they could have made a more modern design.

The helmet is the one aspect I’m not too fond of, but over time the design has grown on me. Only problem is I do like the more machine-esque Metallos ability to transform their body into weapons, so I’d like to keep that and they usually don’t keep that ability when he’s just a normal guy in a suit but with a Kryptonite heart.

[Vordan]