Which DC run/story considered a "Classic" did you never understand the hype?

[SiegePerilous02]

That's more editorials fault than Perez's. It should have been an Year One type story. Setting the story in the then 'present' hurt the Hawks as well.

Yeah I definitely don't blame editorial for that one.

Did they think fans would view it as not being as important because it wasn't set in the "now"? It's mystifying that they thought it was a good idea when we have a character named Wonder Girl who runs around with a lasso and bracelets and is clearly connected to WW but now she isn't.

[Park Slope Pixie]

the Killing Joke

[superduperman]

Far and away Infinite Crisis. It ruined E-2 Superman and for that I can never forgive it. All Star Superman. I don't hate it but it's "meh" at best and Morrison's meta crap gets old fast. I think if it were made today it probably wouldn't have done as well as it did. I used to think the same about Kingdom Come but I kind of get it now. Wolfman's Teen Titan's run. The stories are decent but the dialogue has not aged well. Identity Crisis. I don't need to explain why this one is problematic.

[Aahz]

I don't really see where that was true aside from characters like Green Arrow, Black Canary, and Batman...the whole appeal is characters seemingly acting out of character, like Superman and Wonder Woman, to drive the story.

Thats why have written most characters (Superman and Wonder Woman are obviuosly not among them).

[SJNeal]

I find it ironic that so many posters don't understand the "hype" on a message board. If you don't understand something, all you have to do is ask. You have a resource at your finger tips and you're not using it.

True, but why try to understand something when it's so much easier to knock it or dismiss it as "hype"?

[LordMikel]

True, but why try to understand something when it's so much easier to knock it or dismiss it as "hype"?

One can understand the hype of a book and still thinks it sucks.

[Agent Z]

Perez's 1986 relaunch of Wonder Woman. His art was, as always, beautiful, and he told some really good stories in it. However, I never could get comfortable with the way he turned the Amazons into Olympian puppets and technologically stranded them in the bronze age.

They've been Olympian puppets since Marston. The technology in the original stories was more surface dressing than anything; we never got any insight into specific Amazon technologies, theories and sciences or even how they became so advanced in the first place. Marvel did a much better job with this when it came to Wakanda. The Bana were shown to have technology past the Bronze Age and the Amazons did eventually develop new technology anyway to show how far they had come.

[Hol]

FINAL CRISIS. I do not get how anyone loves or even likes it. It had so much potential as this fantastic New Gods story and then WHAM! as jarring as the art change was from JG Jones to DM we all of a sudden are in a story about Vampire Monitors. I felt like I read half of two stories. Just didn't fit.

Also, I don't remember , but was it ever explained how Batmans dead body was in the present and he ended up alive and well in the past?

[SiegePerilous02]

They've been Olympian puppets since Marston. The technology in the original stories was more surface dressing than anything; we never got any insight into specific Amazon technologies, theories and sciences or even how they became so advanced in the first place. Marvel did a much better job with this when it came to Wakanda. The Bana were shown to have technology past the Bronze Age and the Amazons did eventually develop new technology anyway to show how far they had come.

There was an opportunity to dive into that and flesh it out, instead of just getting rid of it for no reason. Nerfing the one area where we could get female super scientists in the DCU in the process.

[Agent Z]

There was an opportunity to dive into that and flesh it out, instead of just getting rid of it for no reason.

I don't think there was any reason to keep it in the first place. Perez still showed development into Amazon culture even without the advanced technology. Even then, Perez still had the Bana as more advanced than the Themyscirans.

Nerfing the one area where we could get female super scientists in the DCU in the process.

Kimiyo Hoshi, Natsha Irons, Oracle and Akila existed during post crisis. The latter is even a Wonder Woman character.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think there was any reason to keep it in the first place. Perez still showed development into Amazon culture even without the advanced technology. Even then, Perez still had the Bana as more advanced than the Themyscirans.

Why not show both? His greatest contribution is providing more named Amazons with fleshed out personalities, and providing more differing opinions for them and their relationship with the outside world, but the technology being present wouldn't negate any of that. it would still be on the table for others to use, plus its part of the escapist feminist power fantasy that Wonder Woman's world provides. It's cool and the female characters get to be responsible for it, sometimes that basic reason suffices.

The Bana got some of their tech by trading their services as combatants for guns and other weapons (as well as male sex slaves), so that's not the most glowing endorsement. Even then, they were no more advanced than anybody else in our world.

Kimiyo Hoshi, Natsha Irons, Oracle and Akila existed during post crisis. The latter is even a Wonder Woman character.

The latter three weren't created yet when Perez did his reinvention, so that doesn't really help matters.

Plus: why not have more than just them? Why is it ok for the Amazons to lose their accomplishments if we have other female scientists, as if there should be a limit?

[Jim Kelly]

One can understand the hype of a book and still thinks it sucks.

Yeah, I more or less said that in a previous post, just not in those words. "There are lots of comics I'm not enthused about, but if they're comics that have been talked up by comic book fans, I usually know why."

Everyone's free to like what they like, but I'm intellectually curious enough to try and figure out why certain comic books trended in the past. That's been a lifelong preoccupation.

I don't think there are many comic books that have gotten a lot of "hype." To me when a studio promotes a major motion picture before its release, across all media, with actors doing interviews and T.V. spots and putting so much pressure on the masses that one feels like if they don't see this movie in its opening week then they'll be hopelessly out of touch with the zeitgeist--that's hype.

If you asked the public, they wouldn't know very many comic books that are considered "must reads" by fans--they mainly know them through the movie adaptations (especially anything Marvel, not D.C.). Perhaps WATCHMEN--but even that seems rather esoteric for the man on the street--it's still an eclectic book for special people.

A lot of the comics we're talking about were not successful--they never got a big push or if they did get it (the Green Lantern/Green Arrow stories got some attention in mass market newspapers), it didn't help their sales and they were quickly cancelled. D.C. has a long list of critically important comics that were nevetheless dumped and never gained much of a readership.

The reason that a groundswell of fan conversation developed around these short-lived, often experimental, projects was because those fans despaired of them ever being remembered. Readers wanted to push them, because they were important to them. Even with this push, a lot of really great writing and art has fallen through the cracks and no one remembers it. The comic book fans of D.C. have very little power--they are not that significant enough to give a comic book real hype of the kind that impresses the masses.

Even with Marvel, fame is fleeting. I remember when FANTASTIC FOUR was considered the greatest comic book on the racks. The Thing was so popular as a character--he was like the Wolverine of the day--that he would be used to promote other characters. Especially in his team-ups in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE. Look how the mighty have fallen. The average person if they know of the Fantastic Four they know of them from failed movies. The Galactus Trilogy was considered one of the greatest comic book stories of all time by comic book readers--and the Silver Surfer the Hamlet of super-heroes. Now? Oh, such a fall was there--

"Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

[Vordan]

Let’s throw a little more gasoline in here:

Azzarelo’s Joker - I’ve seen this book rated highly and I’ve never understood why. It’s just as empty and awful as Damned, just pure Azz edge with nothing interesting to say. The taunt from Batman to Joker is ok I guess, but it also just feels kinda childish? Nowhere near as impactful as Superman’s rebuttal to Lex in the far superior Luthor imo. It’s just empty “badassery” bravado.

Scott Snyder’s Batman - I like Black Mirror and I like Court of Owls and I’ll always go to bat for those stories, but man otherwise this run is just not aging well for me the more I look back on it. Snyder’s “bombastic” storytelling frequently ended up being the equivalent of a Hollywood summer blockbuster: braindead but pretty to look at thanks to Capullo, and the killer inker/colorist. At the time I loved it because it and JL were the two consistent oases of stability amidst the dumpster fire of DC but I can’t help but feel like Snyder trying to ape Morrison ended up costing him his own unique voice. Also Snyder’s tics as a writer really started to get on my nerves the more I noticed them, the constant “when I was a lad my dad told me this plot relevant story that really makes me think”, Batman constantly monologuing through narration boxes, Snyder’s boner for the Joker despite really not having anything meaningful to say about Joker, and the entire GordonBats saga which seemed to sum up to “no the average person can’t be Batman” which is a message that probably needed to be said, but then there’s the bizarre cloning scheme which went too far imo. A lot of good ideas, not so much great execution.

Still love the Metal events though because events are meant to be dumb, and I do like Snyder’s Riddler because Riddler is a character that gels perfectly with Snyder’s tics.

Tomasi Superman - Before Black Dawn, Multiplicity was a massive flop, a multiversal team up of Supermen should’ve been a slam dunk. Instead they were wasted on a boring ass villain that was even more forgettable than Rogal Zaar, and with terrible filler art. After Black Dawn the whole run fell off a cliff, the family vacation was godawful, Imperious Lex reset Lex back to being a villain, tons of crap filler stories with boring house style art. At least Tomasi ended strong with the Bizarro arc, and issue 45 is legit fantastic, but he was clearly running out of gas and simply couldn’t keep up with book idea wise. Ultimately it’s an ok run but nowhere near the masterpiece it’s fans say it is imo.

[SiegePerilous02]

Let’s throw a little more gasoline in here:

Azzarelo’s Joker - I’ve seen this book rated highly and I’ve never understood why. It’s just as empty and awful as Damned, just pure Azz edge with nothing interesting to say. The taunt from Batman to Joker is ok I guess, but it also just feels kinda childish? Nowhere near as impactful as Superman’s rebuttal to Lex in the far superior Luthor imo. It’s just empty “badassery” bravado.

You're not alone here.

Azz just writes the Joker as a boring, unimaginative thug. Especially when he rapes the main character's wife. Not only is this an overused cliché, it's just not something I would imagine the Joker would do. Not because he's not evil (he is) or would find it morally wrong, it would just be too common for him. He'd find a much more creative and darkly funny way to torment them both.

But then, dumb schlock Joker who isn't funny or creative is unfortunately common these days. It's all about the blood splattered body count.

[Vordan]

You're not alone here.

Azz just writes the Joker as a boring, unimaginative thug. Especially when he rapes the main character's wife. Not only is this an overused cliché, it's just not something I would imagine the Joker would do. Not because he's not evil (he is) or would find it morally wrong, it would just be too common for him. He'd find a much more creative and darkly funny way to torment them both.

But then, dumb schlock Joker who isn't funny or creative is unfortunately common these days. It's all about the blood splattered body count.

I will die on the hill that the best modern Joker writer isn’t Snyder, and it’s not Morrison either, it’s Tom King. Joker threatening to kill himself unless Batman makes him his best man is the funniest most f***** up Joker story I have read in ages. It actually made me laugh at how ridiculous it was, which is exactly how Joker should be.