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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I know, I know. Or rather, I'm not surprised. I just wondered if they'd made any sort of attempt since the last retcon I knew of.

    OOOkay, that image makes Iris significantly older at Wally's birth than she would have been in the original timeline (where she seemed to me to be mid-20s when Wally was 14). I really don't like that dynamic with Wally and Iris (and Barry), but I know a lot love it. I just liked the actual on-panel relationship they had back when actually was a teen better than the post-COIE retconned one. I deeply dislike trying to make Barry and Iris his parents (which they did even further with Wallace, but since I don't think of Wallace as Wally and it isn't erasing prior dynamic doesn't bother me as bad, even if the rest of Wallace's story and erasing Wally is very not okay). Indeed, I liked that, unlike Dick and Roy, Wally wasn't a sidekick and didn't have a parental relationship with his mentor figure (who was far less of a mentor than Batman and Green Arrow, too). I liked the greater independence/separation of Kara and Wally just for being different.
    I haven't read this myself but from the review I saw, they don't mention her age, just that she looks like an adult. Daniel still looks like a teenager, I don't know Wally's age, so I think it can be just the art and they're being deliberately vague because this is before Doomsday Clock was finished.



    Like it looks like they skip over the baby Kid Flash phase and go straight to the more recognizable yellow teen Flash. He looks 14-15-16. Which, by the way, is also Dick's age range whenever his Robin flashback happened during this publication time.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I haven't read this myself but from the review I saw, they don't mention her age, just that she looks like an adult. Daniel still looks like a teenager, I don't know Wally's age, so I think it can be just the art and they're being deliberately vague because this is before Doomsday Clock was finished.
    I suppose with the other saying she was studying abroad when Wally was born, I supposed she was a college student. Could have been high school, I guess.

    Original age - not sure. I want to say that Barry had a 10 year college reunion in an early issue, and then later (but I think still 1960s), he had a 10 high school reunion. I'm not positive about the high school reunion, but I know there was some reference that made him younger than the college reunion would have (if he was a traditionally-aged student). I do tend to think of him and Iris in the 25-30 year age range when he got his powers, I admit. More on the younger end, since he's described as a young police scientist (or something with the word "young" in it) more than once.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That is entirely incorrect. I've read almost every pre-COIE appearance with Wally. The day after he got powers, Wally got up and went school at Blue Valley High School (unless reprints changed something). Him being 14 and in 9th grade then works well with Dick, who was at least 15 already, and then later seemed a year older than Wally since Dick went to college in 1970 and Wally in 1978 (when Dick was still 18/19). Wally didn't know the Flash was Barry until a year later (real time). He was only visiting Iris for the weekend, it seemed. He got along very well with his parents (who were not prominent characters, I'll grant you), who were good people and good parents (here's a later, bronze age page and another). He did not live with Iris, Iris and Barry did not act as his parents. Iris was his aunt, and Barry/The Flash was his friend and later uncle. He also didn't usually act as sidekick - he had a lot more solo adventures than adventures with Barry. He was an independent hero as a teen, which I think is awesome.
    You're 100% right but man what a weird thing where they introduce him at like 4 foot tall. Standing next to Barry in his debut he looks just like a little kid Robin standing next to Batman.

    I guess the surrogate parents thing originates because his real parents only show up a couple of times. When you've got a child character and there's only two relevant adult characters in the dozens of stories they have there's an obvious parental outlook. Not to mention that whenever Barry and Wally were together it was almost always doing middle school science lessons which kind of exacerbates the outlook.

    Anyhow we have a disagreement on what makes Wally interesting. The entire Pre-Flash history of Wally is pretty snore inducing to downright bad sometimes in my book.

    Not to making this a Wally West thread as it seems to be turning into, getting back onto the Wallace topic there's really no escaping it for him. Kind of like pre-Crisis Wally, Wallace's parents are a lot less important to him as a character than Barry and Iris. It's even more cemented these days since the concept of the Flash Family became so strong after Waid's Wally run and Wallace came into his own as a character once that stuff was being either brought back or given a pastiche of by Williamson.

    Which is a bit weird because, honestly, I like Wallace more the less he's a Flash character. His interactions with Barry and most of the rest of the cast are kind of lacking of spark, and his best stuff was hilariously with Deathstroke of all characters. Honestly, the stuff they're doing with the new Bolt character might've been a more interesting spot for Wallace. Right down to a bit of criminal history in their backstories.
    Last edited by Dred; 07-18-2021 at 06:15 PM.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You're 100% right but man what a weird thing where they introduce him at like 4 foot tall. Standing next to Barry in his debut he looks just like a little kid Robin standing next to Batman.
    Teenagers are often far too short in comics. Most kids, really. But especially teenagers, even when they should be adult height already. There's this one NTT issue with either a flashback or photo to Steve and Rita Dayton's wedding and they are so damn short. It's kinda funny, really, how in original Teen Titans, they were all really short only to shoot up and look way older (I assume when it was decided Dick would be going to college soon). And Tim would sometimes shrink in the '90s when he appeared in Batman or Nightwing (but not always). And let's not talk about Carol Bucklen, who is 15, but then they travel to the future and future her is a way taller. I mean, not impossible, but highly unlikely.

    I guess the surrogate parents thing originates because his real parents only show up a couple of times. When you've got a child character and there's only two relevant adult characters in the dozens of stories they have there's an obvious parental outlook. Not to mention that whenever Barry and Wally were together it was almost always doing middle school science lessons which kind of exacerbates the outlook.
    Well, Barry and Iris weren't always there, either. And at least Wally and his dad did the rally race.

    Not to making this a Wally West thread as it seems to be turning into, getting back onto the Wallace topic there's really no escaping it for him. Kind of like pre-Crisis Wally, Wallace's parents are a lot less important to him as a character than Barry and Iris. It's even more cemented these days since the concept of the Flash Family became so strong after Waid's Wally run and Wallace came into his own as a character once that stuff was being either brought back or given a pastiche of by Williamson.
    It really, really bothered me (back when I was reading) that Wallace never thought about the mother who raised him. Constant thoughts about plot-relevant Daniel. And of course Barry and Iris are present. But shouldn't he be desperately searching for his mom (or info on what happened to her) the way Duke was. Shouldn't he mention her? I'd prefer she good (I'm rather sick of bad families for comic characters), but even if she's bad, she raised him, so how about some insight into how that shaped or influenced him. She's as much a non-entity as Roy's mom, but at least in Roy's case she was gone before Roy reached an age of remembering. It really extremely frustrating how very little mothers matter to most male heroes in comparison to fathers (just look at Lara, Martha and Martha v Jor-El, Jonathan, and Thomas). And they've made it worse since they did the Zeus thing with Diana, and made her dad the source of her powers. And it's worse with Wallace because his mom was the parent who was there than some of the other guys.

    Edit: "Lara" not "Lora"
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-19-2021 at 06:19 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Teenagers are often far too short in comics. Most kids, really. But especially teenagers, even when they should be adult height already. There's this one NTT issue with either a flashback or photo to Steve and Rita Dayton's wedding and they are so damn short. It's kinda funny, really, how in original Teen Titans, they were all really short only to shoot up and look way older (I assume when it was decided Dick would be going to college soon). And Tim would sometimes shrink in the '90s when he appeared in Batman or Nightwing (but not always). And let's not talk about Carol Bucklen, who is 15, but then they travel to the future and future her is a way taller. I mean, not impossible, but highly unlikely.
    I kind of edited in more info but even beyond that a lot of the Kid Flash stuff I read was when he does actually team up with Barry and good lord he comes off as a full on child in that. Kind of sort of the same with Haney's Teen Titans -- they all seem barely 13 in that and that's supposed to be a bit into their careers when they're all teaming up. I suppose there's more about being a teenager in high school and stuff in his solo backups he had in those old stories but, again, never been my cup of tea.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I kind of edited in more info but even beyond that a lot of the Kid Flash stuff I read was when he does actually team up with Barry and good lord he comes off as a full on child in that. Kind of sort of the same with Haney's Teen Titans -- they all seem barely 13 in that and that's supposed to be a bit into their careers when they're all teaming up. I suppose there's more about being a teenager in high school and stuff in his solo backups he had in those old stories but, again, never been my cup of tea.
    Yeah, me too. Guess we're too eager to talk.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post

    It really, really bothered me (back when I was reading) that Wallace never thought about the mother who raised him. Constant thoughts about plot-relevant Daniel. And of course Barry and Iris are present. But shouldn't he be desperately searching for his mom (or info on what happened to her) the way Duke was. Shouldn't he mention her? I'd prefer she good (I'm rather sick of bad families for comic characters), but even if she's bad, she raised him, so how about some insight into how that shaped or influenced him. She's as much a non-entity as Roy's mom, but at least in Roy's case she was gone before Roy reached an age of remembering. It really extremely frustrating how very little mothers matter to most male heroes in comparison to fathers (just look at Lora, Martha and Martha v Jor-El, Jonathan, and Thomas). And they've made it worse since they did the Zeus thing with Diana, and made her dad the source of her powers. And it's worse with Wallace because his mom was the parent who was there than some of the other guys.
    Yeah, see, this is why Born to Run and the retcon of Wally looking up to Barry and Iris so much is awesome. The biggest parental figure in Wally's life became Iris, his surrogate mother, which ruled. Also turned Iris into a character with a lot more heart.

    With Wallace there was a kind of undercurrent that she didn't die in the Grodd attack, but that she just used it as a chance to abandon Wallace. It's kind of the explanation we have to live with. She doesn't matter and never mattered except for a handful of things. She:

    A: Kept the West name, so that Wallace is still a West despite;
    B: Hating the Wests so much that one of the few things we ever know about her is that she kept Wallace away from the Wests at all costs because;
    C: She hated Daniel for apparently knocking her up and abandoning her? Did they elope or something? I don't know, why is Wallace's last name West in this whole debacle and;
    D: She bought into lying about Rudy being Wallace's dad to keep Daniel away from being a dad because Wallace operates on that lie for a long time and;
    E: She's of some African American descent since Wallace is Bi-racial and Daniel's white as a lily.

    Iris is the one who tosses out the idea that she probably didn't die and just abandoned Wallace. Even though Daniel has/had a super positive relationship with Wallace but apparently he was in and out of jail so she got stick with him? I dunno. Like I said the more thought you give anything to do with Wallace for the first few years the more convoluted and bad it gets. Which is why it's so much easier to just sweep it away and forget about it. Not like there's much to dive back into about that story. It doesn't have any tie into his superheroics nowadays and he doesn't have a solo comic where a character history deep dive would even happen.
    Last edited by Dred; 07-18-2021 at 06:43 PM.

  8. #53

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    I honestly think the best fix for Wallace would be if he was Wally's half sibling. Like Rudy knocked up another woman in hopes that it would increase the chances of him having a kid with powers.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I suppose with the other saying she was studying abroad when Wally was born, I supposed she was a college student. Could have been high school, I guess.

    Original age - not sure. I want to say that Barry had a 10 year college reunion in an early issue, and then later (but I think still 1960s), he had a 10 high school reunion. I'm not positive about the high school reunion, but I know there was some reference that made him younger than the college reunion would have (if he was a traditionally-aged student). I do tend to think of him and Iris in the 25-30 year age range when he got his powers, I admit. More on the younger end, since he's described as a young police scientist (or something with the word "young" in it) more than once.
    The most recent Barry origin, Flash Year One, placed him 15 years after his mother was still around when he was struck by lightning. 25 sounds right.

    There was another first meeting between Barry and Wally. Don't remember which book but it's by the same artist as Flash Year One. I don't remember if Iris held a baby/toddler Wallace as well or not because I vaguely remember all three of them visiting Barry at the office, and I don't remember if this was before or after the lightning. There was a discussion in this forum about how the kids look nothing like their age, they look like hobbits.

    I think... Wally was a 12-year-old hobbit and Wallace is the biggest 2-year-old Iris can carry but don't count on this info, I'm not even sure if Wallace was there. Iris and Wally were definitely there though. I need to find it again.

    Got it! It is the Year One finale, and they're all there.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 07-19-2021 at 01:19 AM.

  10. #55
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Yeah, see, this is why Born to Run and the retcon of Wally looking up to Barry and Iris so much is awesome. The biggest parental figure in Wally's life became Iris, his surrogate mother, which ruled. Also turned Iris into a character with a lot more heart.

    With Wallace there was a kind of undercurrent that she didn't die in the Grodd attack, but that she just used it as a chance to abandon Wallace. It's kind of the explanation we have to live with. She doesn't matter and never mattered except for a handful of things. She:

    A: Kept the West name, so that Wallace is still a West despite;
    B: Hating the Wests so much that one of the few things we ever know about her is that she kept Wallace away from the Wests at all costs because;
    C: She hated Daniel for apparently knocking her up and abandoning her? Did they elope or something? I don't know, why is Wallace's last name West in this whole debacle and;
    D: She bought into lying about Rudy being Wallace's dad to keep Daniel away from being a dad because Wallace operates on that lie for a long time and;
    E: She's of some African American descent since Wallace is Bi-racial and Daniel's white as a lily.

    Iris is the one who tosses out the idea that she probably didn't die and just abandoned Wallace. Even though Daniel has/had a super positive relationship with Wallace but apparently he was in and out of jail so she got stick with him? I dunno. Like I said the more thought you give anything to do with Wallace for the first few years the more convoluted and bad it gets. Which is why it's so much easier to just sweep it away and forget about it. Not like there's much to dive back into about that story. It doesn't have any tie into his superheroics nowadays and he doesn't have a solo comic where a character history deep dive would even happen.
    This does not need to be so complicated. With a bit of headcanon, let's say:

    - Either both of Wallace's parents or just Daniel were minors at the time of his conception.
    - Daniel bails and/or is arrested/put into juvie.
    - Rudy proposes to register the kid as his son, so he's not cut out from the Wests, but also not beholden to have Daniel, the black sheep of the family, as a father figure.

    And that's that.

    The major problem I see with we start delving into West family dynamics is: who is Iris/Rudy/Daniel father? Because the TV show has Joe, a cop who also raised Barry, the pre and post Crisis continuity had Ira West, inventor, who was even involved in Barry's stuff, and then the New52 continuity had William West, alcoholic and abuser.

    I do think that Wallace's origin is past due for a retelling/adjustment, and I would prefer if his mother is either dead or comatose somewhere: the trend of parents abandoning black kids doesn't sit right with me.

    Also, honestly, I think Jay should adopt him.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    The major problem I see with we start delving into West family dynamics is: who is Iris/Rudy/Daniel father? Because the TV show has Joe, a cop who also raised Barry, the pre and post Crisis continuity had Ira West, inventor, who was even involved in Barry's stuff, and then the New52 continuity had William West, alcoholic and abuser.
    In New 52, Captain Frye who was made captain when Barry was struck by lightning was Barry's father figure, so I'd personally go with combining Ira and William in the lore.

  12. #57

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    Wally can mentor Wallace with Jay occasionally coming in to help out. Impulse works best with Max Mercury. Jay would also have the JSA kids to look after. Plus, I think the dynamic between Wally and Wallace could be really interesting.

    If I had to consolidate the West Family (and this is in a way that's not behold to any previous canon):

    Ira & Nadine West ----> Joe West, Rudy West,

    Joe West & Francine ---> Iris West

    Rudy West & Mary West --> Wally West

    Rudy West & [unnamed woman] --> Wallace West [possible since Rudy and Mary had problem and Rudy tried to kill Wally at one point]

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    If I wasn't beholden to previous canon, I'd do this:

    Jay Garrick is on Earth-Two

    Ira and Nadine have four biological children: Bob (his pre-COIE nice-dad name), Charlotte, Daniel and Iris (I never did like her being from the future). Ira married shortly after obtaining his PhD. Things were tight at first, but they soon became well-off due to his well-paying job and patents. When Mary is pregnant with Wally and Iris is 12 (and Daniel 16), Ira sells a very big patent that makes him very wealthy. He gives Bob and Charlotte some money, and puts some in trust for Daniel, Iris, and his new grandson. Well, actually Nadine does that, because Ira is far too absented-minded to be trusted with that. Or even have the idea. But he agrees to it.

    Bob is the happily married electrical engineer to housewife Mary. They are good parents.

    As per silver/bronze age, Wally tells his parents that he is Kid Flash right after graduating high school. His trust fund allows him to hero full-time and not worry about work while having a middle-class lifestyle. He goes a bit wild with women in his late teens and early 20s and also overspends (not to the jerk level of early post-COIE Wally, though), but then gets smarter and spends with in his means and a bit later meets Linda. In between, he does date Tina, and his parents really don't like him living with a married woman at all, but keep their mouths shut. Wally's biggest overspending weakness: his car. His beautiful car. He's a car guy. His dad is also a car guy, and thinks if he'd gotten the money at that age (rather than a few years later, when married and expecting a child), he'd have done the same thing (he favors expensive cars, himself, but keeps within his means).

    Charlotte is the happily married economics professor married to Edgar. She lives several states away, so Wally didn't see her a lot (though she lives closer to Iris, and those two spend more time with each other than Bob, the 10+ year age difference means they don't have the same dynamic closer aged siblings might). She was a perfectly okay aunt until she had her little girl (born the same year as Wallace), then sort of slipped up occasionally by talking to Wally like he was the same age as Inez. She got over it after the toddler years. After Nadine's death, Charlotte was the one to handle maintaining the service Nadine set up to handle bill-pay, etc. for Ira. She also made the appointment and went with him to set up the trust funds for Wallace and Inez.

    Daniel was an okay kid, but as he got into his teens, he started going down a bad route - minor vandalism and shoplifting at first. Not great friends, but it's not like they turned the good kid bad. Very entitled, and thought he should have everything he wanted. Very resentful that Charlotte and Bob got their money straight-out and his was in trust and he didn't get full control until older. Got worse after his mother died, and Ira certainly had no ability to handle him. Bob was at a distance but did try, and that soured things between them even worse. Didn't go to college or get a job, just hung around with friends all day. Moved out and spent his money too quickly. When Wallace is born, he names him after the grandfather that he did love, but also knowing that was his nephew's name and hoping it'd irk Bob a bit. He's nearly out of money then, and shows up with the kid at a family event (he hasn't been around in years) just to prompt Ira to set up the trust fund. Which Ira does. But gives Charlotte control of it. See, Bob and Charlotte were trustees of Wally and Inez's (better to keep in the same state and no need to pay a fee and take your chances, so they decided not to hire professionals). Charlotte got this one instead of Bob because she lives in the same state as Wallace. Daniel does not like this. He didn't intentionally conceive to get money, but was only taking advantage of the opportunity. Not long after, he splits from Wallace's mom, and only occasionally visits. As he runs out of money, he turns more to crime of various sorts, but he isn't particularlly impressive/successful and doesn't end up living all that large over it, but does manage to do okayish and not have to actually work.

    Wallace has a good mom. She's a billing clerk. Daniel was charming and fun to be with when they met. She knew he had a trust fund, so didn't wonder that he didn't work. His attitude got a lot worse when he ran out of money. They broke up. She has no idea that Wallace has a trust fund (not that it matter, since that money is locked up at this time). Daniel doesn't pay child support (not that she didn't try to get it), but he has a good demeanor when he visits, and she doesn't want to deprive Wallace of his father. He only visits every couple of months and take Wallace to do fun stuff. Her parents die in a car accident when Wally is 5 or 6, and she's an only child, so no close relatives on her side to get Wallace when she disappears. He ends up with Iris and Barry (long-married by then). It's a rough adjustment. And he believes his father an innocent man and blames the Flash for his imprisonment. Relationship builds. He learns the truth. Daniel dies about the time that Wallace's mother is found (comatose, but totally fixable by heroes due the comic-book nature of what happened even if it will take months of rehab for her to be better). It's a hard time for Wallace - both distraught over his father's death (though he's since realized the man unworthy of his love, that didn't make it go away) and elated over his mother's return. Later Ira dies, and his fortune is split between Bob, Charlotte, Iris, and a trust for Wallace, since Daniel per-deceased him and Wallace is still a minor.

    Bart was an artificially created being created in the future. With mixed DNA from two speedster families, and named Allen after the first speedster (this is a world where Superman was the first superhero, so that's Barry). Still does the speed-aging. Rescued from the facility by Max Mercury, who decides to hide him in the past. There are only loose bonds with Wally and Barry - they aren't family to Bart, Max is.

    Iris goes to college, becomes and reporter, and is 24 when Barry becomes the Flash. She gets along with Bob and Charlotte. Loves her nephew and niece and spends time with Wally as an aunt in another city does. Will do with Inez, too, once she's older, but they don't end up as close. Nothing wrong with Inez or Iris, they just don't "click" the same way. They get along fine, though. Since Daniel disassociated from the family after not getting control of Wallace's trust fund, she really doesn't know how far he's gone into crime. They never even met Wallace's mother, and so consequently have no means of contact or relationship with Wallace. Barry never dies or appears to die (though he is missing for a bit, and Wally and other heroes get him back), and Barry and Iris actually have their twins before Wally has his. Their kids are bffs and get along great - Wally is envious of that.

  14. #59
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    I really appreciated this moment in Teen Titans #30. Wallace doesn't get a ton of moments where he's shown to be as formidable as he really is.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

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  15. #60
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    and that time he absolutely dogwalked Slade in Deathstroke: Defiance Annual #1
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 09-25-2021 at 04:23 PM.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
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    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

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