What Should Marvel Do About The Punisher at This Point?

[skyvolt2000]

They listen to Twitter?

YES......

"You look like Riri Williams and should write her book" That is what got Eve Ewing writing for Marvel-when she was not ever thinking of doing so.

"Why can't Donald Glover play Spider-Man" Hi-Miles Morales.

If Marvel-no DISNEY suspects their MONEY is about to be messed with and Twitter gives them that idea-Frank Castle will be GONE and replaced by a gun slinging guy who looks like Killmonger.

[Username taken]

Slightly off topic, but for those still claiming both sides are just as bad.

The both sides argument is a fallacy. All it does is platform and ultimately support white supremacy and domestic terror.

People need to speak out against this stuff as they see it. Period. But not enough people are doing this unfortunately which isn't really new hence civil war, jim crow, segregation etc and more recently the last 4 years (and the last few hours with Trump enacting a ghastly amount of anti-LGBT orders).

Everyone recognizes the dog whistles and anyone choosing to ignore them is inadvertently part of the problem unfortunately.

But please carry on and don't allow me to derail the thread. We discuss and dissect this stuff in the politics thread.

[Bad Witch]

Slightly off topic, but for those still claiming both sides are just as bad.

The problem with that though is the guardian has picked a side. Saying " anti facist " is already disingenuous . The really big issue we are facing is opinion based reporting. I'm almost certain I can go dig up some right wing news site that will have a counter narrative to the link you posted. We are , well some of us who are unbiased are like kids watching our parents (left and right ) go through a nasty divorce and custody battle and their lawyers (media) are telling lies, using half truths and conjecture to win.

Biden's speech today was nice. I hope it sticks, it won't but I hope it does.

[davew128]

The both sides argument is a fallacy. All it does is platform and ultimately support white supremacy and domestic terror.

I disagree wholeheartedly. There was a planned Pro-Trump rally about 2 miles from my home a couple weekends back along the beach. The anti-Trump groups saw and planned a counter-protest. All well and fine, each side has their views and their rights.

What actually happened was that the anti-Trump group got their first, greatly outnumbers the pro-Trump crowd, and then turned on pretty much everyone who wasn't in their group with pepper spray, batons, and skateboards. They tried to justify their actions saying "Nazi's deserved it". Well I'm not going to get into the Nazi thing, but when peaceful demonstrators, local residents, and innocent bystanders are getting beaten and pepper sprayed because everyone else isn't a Nazi, well we just figured out who the Nazis were that day. I read some local threads on Reddit (yes I know) and they tried to justify it because people should have known what they getting into. Despite the fact that many people actually live right at that spot, and it's a heavily travelled area, because, beach boardwalk on a bright sunny Saturday afternoon.

Point being, yes. Both sides.

[extra skater]

I don't see a problem if some group take that as a symbol. I love The Matrix film series and we have seen what the red pill symbology has become. But I understand those who see, specially those who feel threatened or harassed by such groups.
And I know Marvel, I know what they're prone to do in some given situations.

I wouldn't like to see the Punisher completely changed, but I don't worry much either.
The Punisher is one of my fave characters mostly because the great comics that has been released, specially the Vol. 10, my favorite one. So no matter what Marvel does to him, even if it changes the canon because what has been published is still there. I hate most of the changes from New 52 on DC has made, that doesn't erase my favorite stuff from my mind nor from my shelves.

They listen to Twitter?

It's the 20s. Everybody listens to Twitter. :/

[phonogram12]

The both sides argument is a fallacy. All it does is platform and ultimately support white supremacy and domestic terror.

People need to speak out against this stuff as they see it. Period. But not enough people are doing this unfortunately which isn't really new hence civil war, jim crow, segregation etc and more recently the last 4 years (and the last few hours with Trump enacting a ghastly amount of anti-LGBT orders).

Everyone recognizes the dog whistles and anyone choosing to ignore them is inadvertently part of the problem unfortunately.

But please carry on and don't allow me to derail the thread. We discuss and dissect this stuff in the politics thread.

Bingo.

10 characters.

[Celgress]

....It's the 20s. Everybody listens to Twitter. :/

very true

[PCN24454]

At least we're getting rid of that stupid myth that just because Punisher isn't police that his actions are suddenly ok.

[Username taken]

I disagree wholeheartedly. There was a planned Pro-Trump rally about 2 miles from my home a couple weekends back along the beach. The anti-Trump groups saw and planned a counter-protest. All well and fine, each side has their views and their rights.

What actually happened was that the anti-Trump group got their first, greatly outnumbers the pro-Trump crowd, and then turned on pretty much everyone who wasn't in their group with pepper spray, batons, and skateboards. They tried to justify their actions saying "Nazi's deserved it". Well I'm not going to get into the Nazi thing, but when peaceful demonstrators, local residents, and innocent bystanders are getting beaten and pepper sprayed because everyone else isn't a Nazi, well we just figured out who the Nazis were that day. I read some local threads on Reddit (yes I know) and they tried to justify it because people should have known what they getting into. Despite the fact that many people actually live right at that spot, and it's a heavily travelled area, because, beach boardwalk on a bright sunny Saturday afternoon.

Point being, yes. Both sides.

I’m not talking about isolated skirmishes.

I’m talking about the intergenerational racism, bigotry and discrimination ideology that’s still pervasive. It almost always leads to violence often times directed at minorities and whites that are deemed as their allies. The US has had a long problem with domestic terror all the way down from the KKK to the garbage like Timothy McVeigh.

Even absolute nonsense like comicsgate and gamergate are borne out of this. Too many times, people look to an “other” to blame for their unhappiness and in many cases personal shortcomings. The reason for that is because too many people turn a blind eye to the radicalization of young people who in many cases are radicalized in their own homes.

There’s no both sides to argument that people area being brainwashed due to extreme inter generational ideology. There’s no both sides to domestic terror groups that have killed so many people over the years. But like I said earlier, too many people simply keep quiet or in many cases create straw man arguments (like how people were comparing protests about racial injustice to lunatics that stormed the corridors of power to hold hostage or maybe even kill elected lawmakers....when that argument failed it then shifted to the lie that BLM and/or Antifa pretended to be Trump supporters...even typing this is nauseating because it’s so absurdly stupid).

People need to be bold and confront this stuff head on particularly in private because that’s where the most insidious stuff is thriving.

[chamber-music]

The difference between Castle and other heroes though is that they don't torture, maim and kill as they do their thing. At least in Marvel, heroes are depicted ala firefighters, handling threats as they emerge and with less collaterial than if the government had to do it. And frankly, their villains at least get to be a little sympathetic.

Punisher takes some elements from superheroes, but he's so far off the curve it barely matters

The Punisher and superheroes have a different mindset.

The Punisher's tag line is that he wages and one man war on crime and that is his M.O.
The Punisher uses his military background to take out criminals. His mindset is that he is in a pro-active war with 'organized crime' while most superheroes view themselves as protectors reacting to threats. Besides killing the biggest problem is that the Punisher doesn't really answer to anyone but himself. Many superheroes are vigilantes but they generally held to account by the rest of the superhero community.

I didn't read the whole thread, and hope what I'm about to suggest isn't offensive.

They could make Frank Castle queer, gay or bisexual. Not some alternate version or some what if scenario, but the main Frank. Marvel does this and a lot of the people that walks around with his symbol on the chest will stop.

Frank Castle is usually depicted as not being capable of having a stable relationship since his family was killed. He has walked away from every romantic partnership he has had in the comics because he is devoted to his war on crime (and sometimes he is depicted as having having extreme PTSD which prevents him from functioning in wider society).

Making a character LGBTQ to scare off extremists that might be homophobes sounds problematic on multiple levels. Using sexual orientation as tool against the Alt Right isn't a good idea.

There is already a number of diverse violent vigilante characters.

Gay Batman like vigilante called Midnighter at DC

Marvel have a Black British Punisher spinoff character called Outlaw. Kyle Richmond's Nighthawk who is a anti-racism Black Batman and Moon Knight who is Jewish and has Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Marvel loves the whole diverse hero takes on the mantle thing so perhaps the answer is to have Castle get injured so that he can't physically be The Punisher for a while and have Outlaw (Nigel Higgins) take up the mantle for a while. Alt-Right and cops might be less likely to the Punisher skull if the guy wearing is black.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Marvel loves the whole diverse hero takes on the mantle thing so perhaps the answer is to have Castle get injured so that he can't physically be The Punisher for a while and have Outlaw (Nigel Higgins) take up the mantle for a while. Alt-Right and cops might be less likely to the Punisher skull if the guy wearing is black.

That wouldn't really work, as Ewing actually wrote Outlaw as retiring from using lethal force, because of how his actions were perceived.

Frankly, I think Marvel should just pull back from the 24/7 violent wish fulfillment that is Frank Castle. Have him go up against some sympathetic villains, have torture fail, show the flaws in his ethos, etc. Maybe face some cops who adopted his methods, something along those lines

[Celgress]

....Making a character LGBTQ to scare off extremists that might be homophobes sounds problematic on multiple levels. Using sexual orientation as tool against the Alt Right isn't a good idea.....

......Marvel loves the whole diverse hero takes on the mantle thing so perhaps the answer is to have Castle get injured so that he can't physically be The Punisher for a while and have Outlaw (Nigel Higgins) take up the mantle for a while. Alt-Right and cops might be less likely to the Punisher skull if the guy wearing is black.

No offense intended, but, I have a big problem with this contradictory portion of your statement. Why would it be okay to use one minority group to "scare off the Alt-Right" but not another? I don't understand your logic. I think if using LGBTQ+ for this would be "problematic" so would using African Americans (or any other minority group) for the same purpose.

[Agent Z]

That wouldn't really work, as Ewing actually wrote Outlaw as retiring from using lethal force, because of how his actions were perceived.

Frankly, I think Marvel should just pull back from the 24/7 violent wish fulfillment that is Frank Castle. Have him go up against some sympathetic villains, have torture fail, show the flaws in his ethos, etc. Maybe face some cops who adopted his methods, something along those lines

The last bit was done in a 2018 comic at least.

[chamber-music]

That wouldn't really work, as Ewing actually wrote Outlaw as retiring from using lethal force, because of how his actions were perceived.

Outlaw not using lethal force would be part of the reason why it might be worth him becoming Punisher. Perhaps they could have him finally prove to Frank that you can do what he does effectively without murdering criminals. Also as a black guy his interaction with law enforcement would be very different. Probably a lot less sympathetic views towards him than Frank. This could be something o explore.

No offense intended, but, I have a big problem with this contradictory portion of your statement. Why would it be okay to use one minority group to "scare off the Alt-Right" but not another? I don't understand your logic. I think if using LGBTQ+ for this would be "problematic" so would using African Americans (or any other minority group) for the same purpose.

To clarify Higgins becoming Punisher wouldn't be only about driving off the people co-opting the Punisher iconography.

Making an established character have different sexual orientation solely for the purpose of scaring off far right people is different from having a character associated with him take up the mantle. I thinking more along the lines of Falcon being Captain America and how he addressed certain issues from a perspective different from Steve Rogers. Higgins could do the same thing as the Punisher and perhaps that might help change some ideas associated with the Punisher brand.

[Celgress]

....To clarify Higgins becoming Punisher wouldn't be only about driving off the people co-opting the Punisher iconography.

Making an established character have different sexual orientation solely for the purpose of scaring off far right people is different from having a character associated with him take up the mantle. I thinking more along the lines of Falcon being Captain America and how he addressed certain issues from a perspective different from Steve Rogers. Higgins could do the same thing as the Punisher and perhaps that might help change some ideas associated with the Punisher brand.

Okay, thank you for clarifying.