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  1. #16
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    I don't think simply having a story where Punisher denounces alt-right people who use his symbol would do it, since I doubt most of those people read comic books, but maybe a combination of two of those ideas: have the Punisher realize his symbol has been hijacked, strongly denounce it, realize it's gone too far to stop, and change his symbol, never to use the old one again (and also have Marvel switch to the new one for all of their merchandise). Even with all of that, it's probably not a good idea for the Punisher to be one of Marvel's top properties, always with an ongoing. Treat him like Taskmaster or Black Ant, villains with a capacity for good who once in a while get a miniseries, but aren't considered forefront characters.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't know. I don't think there is a right answer to this. Every scenario can have its upsides and downsides. I don't really see a win/win situation here where everyone is going to be pleased with the results. As someone who just doesn't vibe with the Punisher as a character, I won't pretend that I actually care what happens to him, tbh.

    Maybe it's related to this or maybe not, but I've noticed that Marvel seems to have put Punisher, as a titular character, in the ice as of lately. His last solo issue was in October 2019, and he was supposed to get a new mini last year that was apparently cancelled. So, as of now, it's been one year and 3 months without any solo Punisher content. Considering we don't have any new solo Punisher content solicited up until March, that means a total of 1 year and 5 months, which according to my research on Marvel Wikia, is the exact same amount of time he went without a new solo book from 2012 to 2014. That was the most the character ever stayed shelved ever since his first solo series in the 80s, and if we don't hear news about new solo Punisher content for April and the upcoming months, Marvel will actually break that record. So... I guess this year will be crucial to understand where exactly Marvel stands on this issue and how they plan to move forward.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member MichaelC's Avatar
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    The problem with Punisher is the same problem superheroes in general have: that superheroes are a hard rightwing-libertarian fantasy, and the tropes needed to make them the hero of the story are effectively hard rightwing libertarian propaganda. These are stories in which systemic solutions always lead to dystopia, and the only effective solution to crime is to push past the bureaucrats and the laws chaining you and enforce justice with your own two fists or guns. Punisher isn't fundamentally different in that respect, he's just a little more obvious. The mask on the propaganda is thinner. You can see the wires behind the magic trick more easily.

  4. #19
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    That's certainly up to a point. In general, left leaning ideologies believe issues should be resolved through a democratic and non corrupt system (although there is such a thing as Anarcho communism), but the thing is that the system isn't always on your side on many of the important issues. And while movements in general realize that people are stronger together, they still recognize the courage of an individial when he fights for what's best for everyone if what they are fighting for is correct. Rosa Parks was an individual after all whose journey started on her own, and then lead to organized communities. This is why Green Arrow makes sense (but he should build a movement around him). We Are Robin was a book that ort of showed how an advocacy group could work within the Superhero genre.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I love the character of Frank Castle. Punisher has been a long time favorite. But in light of how many bad police officers, hate groups like the Proud Boys have taken over his symbol and how many people on Wednesday were photographed wearing his symbol what should Marvel do with The Punisher at this point? Is this a character whose time has passed because of not only the change in times but because he has been corrupted by the far right and hate groups.

    Edit - I will give my thoughts. I think he is a character whose time has long since passed. He got really big in the shoot first ask questions later days of Charles Bronson Death Wish and Dirty Harry. But in todays age is it really a good ideal to glorify a mass murder who operates outside the wall. It was fun for a bit. And I still enjoy reading his older stuff. but the last few months I have been more and more uncomfortable with him. I hate that racists and dirty police and now the terrorists on the 6th have ruined a character I love by corrupting his symbol.

    Do you keep the Punisher and change the symbol? Or do you just retire him at this point and see that his time has passed?

    If the mods think this is too soon or too heated of a topic I am sorry and am fine with this being taken down.



    Please can we keep this civil
    Give him to a writer like Christopher Priest, who can directly deal with the morality and agendas of a Frank Castle in a similar way as he explored Deathstroke. You can present his point of view, but you can also explore some of the consequences, for himself and for others.

    If regular Marvel is "rebooted", then the more ridiculous events from his history can be wiped out like shooting at litterbugs, etc.
    I really can't stand when he's presented as just that kind of maniac. Even in Ultimate Spider-Man, Mr. Bendis used some of those portrayals.

    Zero in on organized crime more. Give him non-lethal tactics. Expose a criminal conspiracy on television/video. Expose a corrupt politician through wiretaps released on the Internet. Invent a new "Karen Page" for him to give exclusives to. "Punish" wrongdoers that way.

    I'd love to write him myself. Alas, someday.
    Last edited by Hypestyle; 01-10-2021 at 09:19 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by evolutionaryFan View Post
    As much as I hate bringing the real world into the world of comics... in this case, maybe this is the best solution. Do a story exactly about this... Punisher facing the groups who have hijacked his symbol. Make it clear what the Punisher actually stands for.
    Have you seen the cover of Captain America #1. Marvel has always been involved in real world politics and the best stories are the ones set with 1 foot firmly in the world that could be outside your door.

  7. #22
    Fantastic Member MacrossPlus's Avatar
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    Yeah I think Marvel at this point would have to be very careful when they bring back the punisher. I would create a story where it's revealed that Frank went and took a break from being a vigilante for some time now only to come out of retirement when he's finds out there's a group in NYC that's using his symbol, going around killing innocent people in poor neighborhoods. I would use this story to reintroduce the Elite character (From the "Welcome Back Frank" mini series)

  8. #23
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I don't think simply having a story where Punisher denounces alt-right people who use his symbol would do it, since I doubt most of those people read comic books,
    If the statement is going to be made, it really needs to be made in live action.
    Do that scene where Punisher rips up a cop's symbol on one of the TV shows or in one of the movies.

    Heck, get one of the Punisher's actors to come back and film it just for use as a public service/commercial.

    Give people something they can screenshot or make animated gifs of for online use.

  9. #24
    iMan 42s
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    The solution isn't to retire the logo. The problem being that the stuff is already in circulation and it's fairly easy to even make or draw.

    However I have 3 solutions to this that would help solve the problem;

    1. As others have said, do it on film or television where the Punisher confronts someone wearing the logo and have him remove it.

    2. Reboot the Punisher. Reboot him to define his beliefs and what he does and have him confront imposters directly. Showcase how the punisher is wrong and have him grapple with the horrors he's committed. The Punisher is problematic now given so many have adopted the symbol and even methodology of murdering those they perceive as criminals. Frank needs to figure out what separate him from them.

    3. New logo. Yeah the Skull is iconic but there's the issue of so many using it unironically and as villains to be putting it lightly that in addition to a reboot, one should also change the logo. A possible in story reason is so many have adopted the logo in-universe and the real world that it's lost meaning and Frank needs to retire it and come up with a new one. Something that would get the point across that it's him is perhaps something to do with his badge or his heritage. Something simple that easily communicates it's him.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  10. #25
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    One lazy way to keep using Frank but without the Punisher branding/logo would be to turn him back into FrankenCastle while hunting a hate group using his old symbol

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    Changing the symbol or retiring the character would be the biggest mistake(s) Marvel could make.
    You don’t let a bunch of [expletive deleted] dictate your policy.
    Too late when you have let them do it before.

    When certain groups were going after your creative teams over certain books (like Ms Marvel) or the crap John Boyega dealt with.
    How many characters at Marvel and DC are ROTTING on the shelf because of toxic folks?
    How many writers and artist have lost JOBS because of pandering to toxic folks?

    Where was Marvel or Disney?

    Now this company will HARRASS and SUE a daycare over images of Micky and the gang on the windows of the daycare or threaten Wal-Mart over use of images on cakes.

    But they are silent over this? They are using your character as a symbol of hate. Especially to POC.

    Where are those lawyers at? Where is the statement of our characters are NOT to be used in hate agendas?.

  12. #27
    iMan 42s
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    One lazy way to keep using Frank but without the Punisher branding/logo would be to turn him back into FrankenCastle while hunting a hate group using his old symbol
    That's not a bad idea.

    Yeah turn him into something more befitting superheroes like FrankenCastle or give him that old Venom tech suit back. Make him into something more on point superhero and have him confront those who co-opted his image. Hell, give him the War Machine armor again or Iron Patriot. If Punisher isn't exactly welcome in-universe and especially not welcome in the real world then yeah, reboot him and confront the problem directly.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Introduce a like-minded fictional group called “The Punishers”

    They’ll end up butting heads with Frank and we’ll see why/how they differ and that there is only ONE Punisher.

  14. #29
    ♥♥عابث سولاناس♥♥ Park Slope Pixie's Avatar
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    They need to reinforce the thematic that he is not a hero, nor an antihero. If this means he's deemphasized to bit villiain status, it's appropriate.

    He got Microchip killed.

    And please jettison the Cosmic Frank Castle mashup at the earliest convenience.

  15. #30
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    The Punisher symbol is still technically Marvel's, isn't it? The readily available solution is to make an example out of any hate group that is using it in civil court. The mere threat of a lawsuit is usually enough.

    This isn't the first time a hate group has appropriated an image for their own twisted context. There used to be a hate group that co-opted the Coors name and symbol, even to the point that many of its members would tattoo themselves with it. Most people who saw it might think, "Oh, cool, this guy REALLY likes beer," but others who recognized the iconography would know immediately that the person identified with a violent, radical, racist hate group.

    You can't let them own your symbols. If Marvel did that, they'd have to get rid of Ghost Rider (or anyone depicted with a white skull), Thor AND Mjolnir (a tattoo version of the mythical hammer is used by some racist groups), and on and on and on.

    My last point here is that Marvel probably should ask themselves why do these hate groups identify with the Punisher? What responsibility does it have, if any, for the messages that it is conveying to the masses? Normal minds might appreciate Marvel's content as purely entertainment, but clearly a wide number of individuals out there derive something more from it. A little introspection and downstream analysis never hurts. With great power (and great influence) comes great responsibility, right?
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 01-10-2021 at 10:48 AM.

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