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  1. #181
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    A wiser course of action is to change the character making him unappealing to the problematic groups.
    That's not wise just giving in because people on social media throw a hizzyfit for a day then move on. They could have used a SW Stormtrooper as well. You don't change the Punisher and you don't change Jonah Hex or John Constantine. They weren't created as pc and I hope they never will be. It would be a boring landscape of characters if you remove all the controversial ones.

  2. #182
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Have him go after Trump trash.
    Calling Wanda a Pretender is Trumpian at best

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Have him go after Trump trash.
    I posted a good suggestion for a target in the previous page.

  4. #184
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    Marvel should just stop putting Castle up against utter scumbags who gleefully confess to the worse crimes.

    As others have pointed out, retiring Castle or changing his logo would have virtually no effect.

    But I think introducing some moral ambiguity, some logical consequences, would lessen his impact on pop culture in a way we need. Just as 24 needed to stop showing torture as an excellent interrogation technique, Punisher should stop treating a bullet to the brain and sadistic maiming as the only way criminals will ever pay for their crimes.

    Stop paying lip service to the idea that Castle himself is a criminal,m and actually explore it. I mean hell, Omar Little's caught more flack for the impact of his actions than Castle ever has.

  5. #185
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Have him go after Trump trash.
    Here's an idea:

    Several media outlets are reporting that on his last day in office President Trump will reportedly pardon more than 100 felons.

    Why not introduce that real life scenario into the fictional universe? I don't know if Marvel ever referenced Trump as the president like it did with Obama and previous presidents, but if it did, why not have a story arc where Trump frees hundreds of felons, most of which were on Frank's "to do" list, but were saved by virtue of incarceration? But now that they're no longer in jail, they're fair game.

    I could see a nice 12 issue series where Frank methodically goes about ensuring that the hundred pardoned criminals get their just desserts. And considering that corruption was likely also involved in how some of those criminal got their pardons, maybe have Frank climb the ivory ladder to whack a grifting enabler or two?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Marvel should just stop putting Castle up against utter scumbags who gleefully confess to the worse crimes.

    As others have pointed out, retiring Castle or changing his logo would have virtually no effect.

    But I think introducing some moral ambiguity, some logical consequences, would lessen his impact on pop culture in a way we need. Just as 24 needed to stop showing torture as an excellent interrogation technique, Punisher should stop treating a bullet to the brain and sadistic maiming as the only way criminals will ever pay for their crimes.

    Stop paying lip service to the idea that Castle himself is a criminal,m and actually explore it. I mean hell, Omar Little's caught more flack for the impact of his actions than Castle ever has.
    The problem is that you'd also have to start acknowledging this problem with other superheroes as well. The basic premise of your typical superhero universe is that the government is both incompetent and out to get you, civilians are perpetually under attack from threats both foreign and domestic and the first, best and last solution to crime is brute force.

    Any of this sound familiar? It's the same rhetoric the alt-right frequently pushes. Superheroes have indeed been used to push liberal values but they have also been used to champion rightwing morals as well, both intentionally and unintentionally. Frank isn't necessarily more problematic than other superheroes, his writers are just more upfront about it so to speak. Most other Marvel heroes may not be as prone to killing and maiming but they do frequently commit trespassing, stalking, assault, torture, property damage etc. Right now, we have yet another story in which the government trying to rein superheroes in is conflated with suppression of civil rights. Frank is n easy target but in general, the entire superhero genre needs a serious re-examination.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The problem is that you'd also have to start acknowledging this problem with other superheroes as well. The basic premise of your typical superhero universe is that the government is both incompetent and out to get you, civilians are perpetually under attack from threats both foreign and domestic and the first, best and last solution to crime is brute force.

    Any of this sound familiar? It's the same rhetoric the alt-right frequently pushes. Superheroes have indeed been used to push liberal values but they have also been used to champion rightwing morals as well, both intentionally and unintentionally. Frank isn't necessarily more problematic than other superheroes, his writers are just more upfront about it so to speak. Most other Marvel heroes may not be as prone to killing and maiming but they do frequently commit trespassing, stalking, assault, torture, property damage etc. Right now, we have yet another story in which the government trying to rein superheroes in is conflated with suppression of civil rights. Frank is n easy target but in general, the entire superhero genre needs a serious re-examination.
    The difference between Castle and other heroes though is that they don't torture, maim and kill as they do their thing. At least in Marvel, heroes are depicted ala firefighters, handling threats as they emerge and with less collaterial than if the government had to do it. And frankly, their villains at least get to be a little sympathetic.

    Punisher takes some elements from superheroes, but he's so far off the curve it barely matters

  8. #188
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Have him go after Trump trash.
    Oh, man. No self-awareness.
    "Cable was right!"

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    The difference between Castle and other heroes though is that they don't torture, maim and kill as they do their thing.
    They do sometimes depending on the writer.

  10. #190
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The problem is that you'd also have to start acknowledging this problem with other superheroes as well. The basic premise of your typical superhero universe is that the government is both incompetent and out to get you, civilians are perpetually under attack from threats both foreign and domestic and the first, best and last solution to crime is brute force.

    Any of this sound familiar? It's the same rhetoric the alt-right frequently pushes. Superheroes have indeed been used to push liberal values but they have also been used to champion rightwing morals as well, both intentionally and unintentionally. Frank isn't necessarily more problematic than other superheroes, his writers are just more upfront about it so to speak. Most other Marvel heroes may not be as prone to killing and maiming but they do frequently commit trespassing, stalking, assault, torture, property damage etc. Right now, we have yet another story in which the government trying to rein superheroes in is conflated with suppression of civil rights. Frank is n easy target but in general, the entire superhero genre needs a serious re-examination.
    Superheroes are supposed to be representations of higher values that would normally supersede rule of law. If they were anything but, they would simply be agents of the state—not what I'd classify as a superhero. So why would the superhero genre need a re-examination? Should all superheroes drive the speed limit and work with the police to solve crime? Should superheroes work within the bounds of the system to fight corruption within the system? Seems rather counterintuitive, no? However, The Punisher is less superhero and more vigilante, which is what he's normally painted as, so I don't really see the issue here. Frank does not act like a superhero, and he's never really been regarded as one.
    Last edited by Citizen Kane; 01-18-2021 at 03:43 PM.

  11. #191
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    Superheroes are supposed to be representations of higher values that would normally supersede rule of law. If they were anything but, they would simply be agents of the state—not what I'd classify as a superhero. So why would the superhero genre need a re-examination? Should all superheroes drive the speed limit and work with the police to solve crime? Should superheroes work within the bounds of the system to fight corruption within the system? Seems rather counterintuitive, no? However, The Punisher is less superhero and more vigilante, which is what he's normally painted as, so I don't really see the issue here. Frank does not act like a superhero, and he's never really been regarded as one.
    Actually, superheroes adhere to the law and most don't hold themselves above it due to any sense of higher morality (think Superman), even though on occasion you'll see a story where an unjust law is ignored. Anti-heroes, on the other hand, act outside the law due to that sense of code or subjective notion of "higher morality" that you reference. They should never be confused for law-abiding, or even law-adjacent heroes, which is precisely why real world actors identify with Frank so readily. His law, his code is all that matters, and it's one that advocates violence as the primary means to achieve his goal. It's not a new concept, but it's perhaps the most enduring in the Marvel Universe, outside of Wolverine.

  12. #192
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    That's not wise just giving in because people on social media throw a hizzyfit for a day then move on. They could have used a SW Stormtrooper as well. You don't change the Punisher and you don't change Jonah Hex or John Constantine. They weren't created as pc and I hope they never will be. It would be a boring landscape of characters if you remove all the controversial ones.
    How is changing Punisher so he doesn't appeal so much to militants "giving in"? As others have suggested, having him go after homegrown extremists or felons pardoned by the "President" (aka Trump) are good ways to dampen his appeal to them as a symbol. That course of action is better than doing nothing or retiring the character in both cases his appeal to militant group remains intact. Heck, his appeal would likely increase if he's retired for obvious reasons.
    Last edited by Celgress; 01-18-2021 at 04:21 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #193
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Actually, superheroes adhere to the law and most don't hold themselves above it due to any sense of higher morality (think Superman), even though on occasion you'll see a story where an unjust law is ignored. Anti-heroes, on the other hand, act outside the law due to that sense of code or subjective notion of "higher morality" that you reference. They should never be confused for law-abiding, or even law-adjacent heroes, which is precisely why real world actors identify with Frank so readily. His law, his code is all that matters, and it's one that advocates violence as the primary means to achieve his goal. It's not a new concept, but it's perhaps the most enduring in the Marvel Universe, outside of Wolverine.
    Bravo, well put, friend. You have precisely summarized the root of the true issue here.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #194
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    I think everyone is overthinking this. If you don't want anyone in the real world to identify with Punisher, maybe start by taking away his real world replicant guns, knives, grenades, weapons and assorted paraphernalia? That will introduce an additional layer of fictionality between Punisher and the people who wish to emulate him.

    Would that ruin the character? For many of his fans, probably. But he wouldn't be the first character to have a truly fictional weapon, like Rom's neutralizer, or Starlord's pistol that fired one of the 4 basic elements instead of bullets.

  15. #195
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Actually, superheroes adhere to the law and most don't hold themselves above it due to any sense of higher morality (think Superman), even though on occasion you'll see a story where an unjust law is ignored. Anti-heroes, on the other hand, act outside the law due to that sense of code or subjective notion of "higher morality" that you reference. They should never be confused for law-abiding, or even law-adjacent heroes, which is precisely why real world actors identify with Frank so readily. His law, his code is all that matters, and it's one that advocates violence as the primary means to achieve his goal. It's not a new concept, but it's perhaps the most enduring in the Marvel Universe, outside of Wolverine.
    Nowhere did I say the characters themselves adhere to some "higher morality", even though many do (Batman and his code and even Superman for what is "right/good"). I only mentioned what a superhero is written to represent. If a superhero is a champion/representation of justice, valor, and compassion, what are those values meant to represent if not some higher morality or code? And I already made clear The Punisher is a vigilante. However, this is all besides the point I made in my previous post.
    Last edited by Citizen Kane; 01-18-2021 at 05:17 PM.

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