What Should Marvel Do About The Punisher at This Point?

[The_Last_Czarnian]

Yep. Just here to re-post: Nothing.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Does dangling people off rooftops or other high places count as torture, because that's a pretty standard move for superheroes.
A lot of the fast ones and fliers also like to drop them, let them fall for a bit, then catch them.

True, but that still doesn't reach Castle's MO of mutilation, use of blow torch, amputation, etc.

Simply because super heroes do not keep strictly to the law does not make them the same as Punisher. Excessive torture, pulling the intestines out of people, is his every day.

The distance between him and other heroes is miles long.

[Triniking1234]

He dispenses brutal justice with guns and violence, doing what the Justice System is too soft and polite to do and is never, ever wrong. He's Jack Bauer before we ever had 24

He doesn't "dispense brutal justice" because he thinks the Justice System is crap. The Maggia killed his family so he's on a suicide-revenge mission against them and he portrays himself as always right. He isn't Batman.

There must be some bad writers and readers after War Journal. Damn.

[Celgress]

I am not in favor of letting the bad guys win. It's like saying, "Let's never build tall buildings anymore" since 9/11. Let Frank be Frank but be more direct with the message. Either have him address these groups in a story where it's made clear and/or bring the Punisher back to where he started - as a bad guy. (Remove Frank's code of never killing cops for one since it was meant to give virtue to a murderer) Daredevil never lost sight of it, but the audience has. Frank is an unhinged serial murderer. Just stop glamorizing and justifying his actions in the books. It would be more valuable to explain in-story why he shouldn't be admired. He was always a tragic figure, but that's been lost over time as readers began to move towards his worldview.....

Excellently put, friend. I think this is the proper approach.

[Celgress]

If we're getting mad that the Punisher isn't a law abiding citizen, shouldn't we be objecting to every superhero ever?

very true

[extra skater]

But once you portray as a total psycho..everybody wonders why he’s not in jail double pronto, in a universe where ultra competent heros exist.

But I suppose it’s necessary to turn off part of the brain to enjoy Punisher stories? (I must admit I’ve enjoyed a ton of them...)

I don't think you have to turn it off, I guess you already know that what Frank does is wrong. As by you avatar I believe you like Tommy and you doesn't approve his actions either. The fact that a story is well-written, like 2014-2015 Punisher by Nathan Edmondson is, doesn't make a sane person adore and take a bad anti-hero as a symbol.

[Celgress]

I don't think you have to turn it off, I guess you already know that what Frank does is wrong. As by you avatar I believe you like Tommy and you doesn't approve his actions either. The fact that a story is well-written, like 2014-2015 Punisher by Nathan Edmondson is, doesn't make a sane person adore and take a bad anti-hero as a symbol.

Indeed, a valid point.

[CaptainLiberty76]

To reiterate one final time, as to what Marvel should do about the Punisher, the best answer is this: nothing, nothing, and oh yeah ... nothing. Frank is an always interesting character and I have enjoyed his growth since Conway introduced him back in the 70s.

[extra skater]

If they change the character because of these groups and we start do discuss the effects of bad representations and role model of fiction to the real world, there will be a lot of trouble to art production in the future.

[The Cool Thatguy]

If they change the character because of these groups and we start do discuss the effects of bad representations and role model of fiction to the real world, there will be a lot of trouble to art production in the future.

If they don't change or acknowledge the negative aspects though, they continue to have influence, though.

I bring up Jack Bauer from 24 a lot in this discussion because the writers depicted torture as super effective, so much so that servicemen were opting to use it. For better or worse...usually worse...pop culture influences people.

Frankly, they don't have to change Castle himself at all, to mitigate the revenge fantasy that he is. Have him actually kill some sympathetic villains, depict torture as ineffective, acknowledge that some of the people he kills are victims of poverty, etc.

[extra skater]

I bring up Jack Bauer from 24 a lot in this discussion because the writers depicted torture as super effective, so much so that servicemen were opting to use it. For better or worse...usually worse...pop culture influences people.

Alright, but this kind of question and possible decisions leads to concepts like good art or bad art. Who's deciding that?
We've got Lupin trending on Netflix right now. If museums start being robbed in France, should the show be held responsible for that?

Also the Punisher has always been seen as an outcast in Marvel universe and there were always some other hero to make a counterpoint to his actions. It was always clear that he wasn't a role model.

On the other hand, if I were the author I think I would be worried about extremist groups using my character as a symbol too.

But ultimately I don't think anything should change at all, except for maybe reinforce the idea that he's a pariah after all.

[Triniking1234]

Maybe we should deal with crime in real life so Frank doesn't have to do it in his books.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Alright, but this kind of question and possible decisions leads to concepts like good art or bad art. Who's deciding that?
We've got Lupin trending on Netflix right now. If museums start being robbed in France, should the show be held responsible for that?

Also the Punisher has always been seen as an outcast in Marvel universe and there were always some other hero to make a counterpoint to his actions. It was always clear that he wasn't a role model.

On the other hand, if I were the author I think I would be worried about extremist groups using my character as a symbol too.

But ultimately I don't think anything should change at all, except for maybe reinforce the idea that he's a pariah after all.

Show me a time when Frank actually killed an innocent person. Show me a time when he killed a sympathetic person, or when his torture wasn't a 100% effective.

Punisher appeals to the darkest fantasies of us, and has done so for decades.

It amazes me how some people are afraid of actually showing him to be in the moral wrong instead of just saying it...

[extra skater]

Show me a time when Frank actually killed an innocent person. Show me a time when he killed a sympathetic person, or when his torture wasn't a 100% effective.

Punisher appeals to the darkest fantasies of us, and has done so for decades.

It amazes me how some people are afraid of actually showing him to be in the moral wrong instead of just saying it...

Of course he hasn't killed an innocent person. And so hasn't Spawn. They're anti-heroes, not villains (from the point of view of comics editors).
And, yeah, I know they're very different once Spawn is purely fantastic while the Punisher has some realism.

But there's counterpoint, mate. That's what I'm saying.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Of course he hasn't killed an innocent person. And so hasn't Spawn. They're anti-heroes, not villains (from the point of view of comics editors).
And, yeah, I know they're very different once Spawn is purely fantastic while the Punisher has some realism.

But there's counterpoint, mate. That's what I'm saying.

Fraction did a follow up to this story, I believe. Basically, the guy avoided jail on a technicality, got off scott free, and then Punisher killed him.

So yeah, not much of a counter point.

Especially when the comic has no issue making DD complicit in Bullseye's crimes, even though escaping jail on such a regular basis and killing so many is only a comic trope.