What Should Marvel Do About The Punisher at This Point?

[Citizen Kane]

This isn't a discussion that even remotely related to censorship.

I disagree. Several suggestions in this thread are very blatantly calling for the character to either be banned or completely changed, falling quite comfortably into the realm of censorship, considering their reasonings for the changes. It's quite literally a censorship of a version of the character, even if you can still buy floppies or trades of those stories.

If we'd rather not discuss this particular matter, that's fine, but I'll simply finish with, "I didn't start it".

[FFJamie94]

Changing a character isn't censorship however. Characters get changed constantly in comics outside of a few exceptions. All you need is a few stories that cut to the social political base of the character in order to reform public perception. That isn't censorship, hell that's barely changing the character. That's just going 'Hey! We would like to see a story with this character' or 'this character address X'.

[Citizen Kane]

Changing a character isn't censorship however.

That's why context matters, and why you're wrong.

I'm also not here to argue the definition of "censorship". I already explained the issue in my previous post, and anything further along in this line of discussion will only have me repeating myself and further going off-topic. I will not be replying to any other comments regarding what is and what isn't censorship, in this thread. If you'd like to discuss further, feel free to PM me.

[Username taken]

I disagree. Several suggestions in this thread are very blatantly calling for the character to either be banned or completely changed, falling quite comfortably into the realm of censorship, considering their reasonings for the changes. It's quite literally a censorship of a version of the character, even if you can still buy floppies or trades of those stories.

What you're describing isn't censorship. Changing a character isn't censorship, you might want to actually look into the actual meaning of that word before making comments like these. And no one called for the character to be "banned".

But if you're not comfortable with the discussion, you're very free to ignore it and move on.

[Citizen Kane]

What you're describing isn't censorship. Changing a character isn't censorship, you might want to actually look into the actual meaning of that word before making comments like these. And no one called for the character to be "banned".

Again, context matters. Oh, and uh:

No, the only way to get Marvel clear of this is to shut The Punisher down. Ban projects for him. Shut down access to every title of his, let him be this whacko that shows up in other titles (online back issues, ban future use). Pull the movies, including Netflix. Let him wither.

Which won't happen b/c 1st Amendment, and (far more importantly) $$$$.

[Username taken]

Again, context matters. Oh, and uh:

And he gave reasons why it won't happen...

There are tons of characters I'd rather not see exist but the reality is that they will. I think that's the point DrNewGod was making.

[Killerbee911]

Marvel needs to never straddle morality the line with Punisher. It gives the symbol just enough legitimacy that wrong people want to wear. We can make an argument he is like any other popular villain for example Joker but Punisher has a realism to it that make groups attaching character symbol uncomfortable. We all understand that people are using it because they think it is cool or badass but as an example



This is symbol for the Sons of Anarchy, A motorcycle gang show that exuded "badass", Their symbol would never be allowed on anything for the police or military. That is problem in a nutshell there is a comfort level with Punisher the times they pretend he is some what noble antihero that gives people encouragement to wear his symbol unironically.

Yes something can be done you can change the narrative on punisher so there is no doubt. And that is biggest problem with Punisher on the Marvel end they don't want to full commit Punisher to what he is which basically "Super hero dexter". Marvel is very much to blame because they want to profit on the "antihero" version. Marvel has two choices

1. Make Punisher a "Hero" never cross the line and has mercy on some criminals- What does that do organizations won't feel that off with him being symbol he becomes like Wolverine or Deadpool
2. Make Punisher a "Villain" make it clear as day that no policeman or military should every want to wear his symbol. What does that do make him toxic to everyone who consider wearing his symbol except the extreme

It is simple culture change that is need, Hence that is why I suggested the Black Woman who kills Militia,Terrorist, Dirty Police and Military. You can over period years change identity of Punisher as vigilante who picks on gangsters , hoodlums and organized crime . To a vigilante who picks on the "dirty system" and that over time will kill happiness those people in those organization of wearing the symbol.The goal isn't to stop them from wearing the symbol that is always going to happen on some level. The goal is to make the people around them point out what that symbol means and create situation like Son of Anarchy symbol as bad ass it might be they still a drug dealing biker gang and a cop would never wear it in uniform.

At minimum Punisher should be known as Cop-Killer. A regular part of Punisher's thing should be killing dirty cops. The military that is kinda lost cause organizationally they probably against it already but the type of units/people would wear the symbol is grunts or special ops and they actually kill people and it is their point to kill people. If it is point out in military they would probably stop them from wearing it(if civilians can see them). Civilian Militia types you aren't going to stop either because they relate to punisher they wish they could be that in the real world for "their cause".

[Alpha]

Like I said, I'm not a Punisher fan, but I don't understand why people want to make him a moral figure. I always thought he was an extremist without reason and that he should be portrayed that way.

[Alan2099]

So many of these ideas read like "Bad people like him, so he needs to be changed so nobody can like him ever again. Let's get rid of everything that's ever made the character work."

That just doesn't strike me as a good working plan.

[The Cool Thatguy]

So many of these ideas read like "Bad people like him, so he needs to be changed so nobody can like him ever again. Let's get rid of everything that's ever made the character work."

That just doesn't strike me as a good working plan.

Having him actually kill an innocent person, torture the wrong man aren't concepts that break Punisher, they're simply logical extensions of the crap Castle does, and should be demonstrated.

Why are we so much more comfortable throwing shade at heroes than anti-heroes who slaughter people left and right?

[Omega Alpha]

Since he really hasnt sustained a long running solo how much money can thee be at this point?

Yes, specially considering he had a successful TV series that only ended because of Marvel ending it's relationship with Netflix. Plus he had a few movies.

It’s an interesting discussion to say the least with no easy answers.

But as others have pointed out, a starting point would be for Marvel/Disney to issue cease and desist orders at those appropriating the sign. And at the same time issue a statement about the company’s values or whatever.

Disney is very quick to shut people for innocuous use of their imagery but when their creators or employees are attacked and harassed by the alt-right or their imagery appropriated by loons, they keep suspiciously silent. Unfortunately, it’s this attitude that’s basically led to the reinforcement of white supremacy and conspiracy theory fueled groups in society and allows stuff like the alt-right harass their (Marvel/Disney) creators to no end.

It's because Perlmutter is very much the type of man that supports the alt-rights ideas and values. He's a Trump buddy after all.

[Username taken]

Yes, specially considering he had a successful TV series that only ended because of Marvel ending it's relationship with Netflix. Plus he had a few movies.



It's because Perlmutter is very much the type of man that supports the alt-rights ideas and values. He's a Trump buddy after all.

Funny enough, I forgot about the Perlmutter aspect. Good point.

[Killerbee911]

So many of these ideas read like "Bad people like him, so he needs to be changed so nobody can like him ever again. Let's get rid of everything that's ever made the character work."

That just doesn't strike me as a good working plan.

When your symbol shows up on soldiers who commit war crimes, bad cops, and militia who lead attack on capitol building, discouraging people from identifying themselves with characters is an option.

The only reason why we are talking discourage is making Frank a more hero fundamental changes the character. Making punisher more of a bad guy keeps him more in character. Besides Punisher being likable is kinda the issue. If people were walking around in Hannibal Lector, Joker, or Dexter t-shirt AND doing bad stuff, those guy's companies would have to answer the same type of question. Those guys I mention are likable entertaining villains but there is a clear enough line that these are clearly the bad guy. People don't wear Joker stuff to celebrate the character's actions, but the some people wearing Punisher items is to mimic him in a manner.

The issue isn't "bad guys" like him, It is "good guys" are self-identifying with him as well as bad guys. It isn't about making a character unlikable that nobody wants to read the character. It is about making character unlikable in a way that no professional goes we want to identify ourselves with that.

[batnbreakfast]

What Marvel should do is stop protecting Frank from the logical consequences of his methods.

He sprays bullets everywhere. Have him shoot and kill someone innocent or sympathetic.

He tortures people every third issue. Have that be less effective or not actually work, or work against Castle.

Retiring him won't stop people from using his symbol.

But demonstrating the issues with his MO would certainly undermine the fantasy that so many hold.

It was done and called PunisherMax Girls in White Dresses.

I want the genres Frank Castle brings along with him from Marvel: street level crime, war, hardboiled and noir. You can't put this in Thor, Iron-Man or Ant-Man. Every Marvel character is a superhero+genre x

[Triniking1234]

All I see is a bunch of essays of complaining from people who barely read Punisher books.

DC still uses Joker after what went down in 2019 and still reprint/distribute V for Vendetta when Anonymous and other groups use the mask for illegal purposes.

So all Marvel has to do is keep using Frank Castle and stop ****ing listening to a bunch of softies on Twitter who don't go outside.