What Should Marvel Do About The Punisher at This Point?

[Triniking1234]

Punisher has blood on his hands, and he should be making far more mistakes in killing innocent people than he does. But, like the Hulk, this is waved away because if he was written more realistically every super-hero he met would spent more effort arresting him and he'd be in a jail cell within an hour if Iron Man wanted him there. Wolverine is also focused on specific targets who get in his path, Punisher goes after everyone - it's his purpose. Frank Castle died the day his family did.

Like this. What is this?

Punisher books already explain how calculating Frank which is why he has less innocent blood on his hands than the Hulk.

"Punisher goes after everyone" He isn't a nutjob like Sabretooth or Purple Man or Thanos.

[Agent Z]

Having him actually kill an innocent person, torture the wrong man aren't concepts that break Punisher, they're simply logical extensions of the crap Castle does, and should be demonstrated.

The Punisher: War-Zone movie had Frank accidentally killing an undercover FBI agent.

Why are we so much more comfortable throwing shade at heroes than anti-heroes who slaughter people left and right?

What makes you think we are? Marvel and DC have tons of stories tearing down antiheroes and the Punisher is no exception.

Anyone remember this scene from Joss Whedon's Runaways run?







Whedon has even referred to the Punisher as a coward and a fascist. Over on DC, you've got antiheroes like Red Hood and Ghostmaker being treated like pariahs at best, villains at worst. Even heroes who happen to kill like Wonder Woman will get shade thrown at them by the likes of Geoff Johns.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Punisher: War-Zone movie had Frank accidentally killing an undercover FBI agent.



What makes you think we are? Marvel and DC have tons of stories tearing down antiheroes and the Punisher is no exception.

Anyone remember this scenes from Joss Whedon's Runaways run?



Whedon has even referred to the Punisher as a coward and a fascist. Over on DC, you've got antiheroes like Red Hood and Ghostmaker being treated like pariahs at best, villains at worst. Even heroes who happen to kill like Wonder Woman will get shade thrown at them by the likes of Geoff Johns.

Embarrassing Castle and throwing actual shade at him, like having him torture the wrong person or some such, are two entirely different things.

Come back when you can show me a scan of him killing a sympathetic character or innocent person

[TooFlyToFail]

It’s super unfortunate that this character has been hijacked by hate groups and dirty cops. I wouldn’t want Frank gone entirely but there are a couple of options Marvel can do. The first is to simply keep him around but relegate him to guest appearances only. The second is to simply retire his logo.

But I think the boldest option is to keep him around but do a story where Frank specifically goes after hate groups like the Proud Boys and the alt right. That Marvel can tell the world that the Punisher is here to stay and he has absolute ZERO tolerance for these scumbags and that they are not on the same side in any shape or form. It’ll be controversial to the groups I mentioned and those who sympathize with them. But with Trump getting banned from almost every major platform online and Parler getting dropped by both google and Apple, I think it’s safe to say that people are caring less and less about what these people think.

That makes no sense. He represents brutal vigilante justice, without impunity. It could be your first day on the job, and you're reconsidering, but it doesn't matter. He'll slaughter you all the same.

Him going after bad actors in a comic doesn't change the fact that he's a psychopath, and shouldn't be a symbol for anything.

Making him a symbol of any movement or people means you're taking his insane ideology. It doesn't matter where your values lie, his symbol corrupts it, exposes your ignorance to use such a symbol or reveals your actual intentions.

[TooFlyToFail]

So what to do with Punisher? Make Punisher into a thing that people wearing the symbol want nothing to do with. So basically rest the original punisher and make new character the Punisher something like an ex black ops black female turn vigilante who goes after Dirty cops, Proud Boys,White supremacist and corrupt Military types. Make the point of the Punisher to go after the things that celebrating him. Yes play up the SJW part and show the horrible parts of milta, cops and military complex. Take the fun out of character for these groups, Make so when they put on symbol someone ask them don't you feel weird wearing the symbol of character who kills police and soldiers. Punisher has always been more of an organized crime serial killer, switching it to a serial killer who picks on dirty cops and milta will do the trick.

So now making the Punisher a black person, cranking up the SJW part, as you say, and now having her kill only white people (who are all conveniently corrupt or racist) is supposed to be better?

So rather than empowering bad actor cops and ignorant people who like the logo, we should do the extreme opposite a empower their violent counterparts more? The Dallas sniper was a thing, you know.

The Punisher shouldn't be a symbol for anything, good or bad.

[TooFlyToFail]

They need to reinforce the thematic that he is not a hero, nor an antihero. If this means he's deemphasized to bit villiain status, it's appropriate.

He got Microchip killed.

And please jettison the Cosmic Frank Castle mashup at the earliest convenience.

Yeah, having heroes actually/genuinely attempt to arrest him in any future stories could be effective.

Don't make him a hero now, tho. Those saying "have him murder racists and corrupt cops now, yeah! No fair or proper trials! Kill them wholesale!" aren't realizing that they now want to become what they demonized.

His wanton slaughter is not a positive, regardless of who he's sided with.

[babyblob]

His wanton slaughter is not a positive, regardless of who he's sided with.

I will agree with this. It would be kind of fun to see him or another character go after proud Boys and what not. Would this be a fresh take on the character and fun to read? I think I would enjoy it a bit more to be honest. But we cant say his methods are not okay right now but they will be okay when he targets a group that we dont like. Killing a street thug or mobster with out trial and due process is wrong and it would be just as wrong to kill a proud boy or dirty cop with out due process. Murder is murder.

[TooFlyToFail]

I don't think it'd be fun, because it'd be without nuance most likely. Just because you're part of a bad group doesn't mean you're automatically 100% bad. Lots of people join groups like that for companionship or because of their life experiences. Having them slaughtered by a mad man isn't productive, and would only create more division. You can't change the minds of people, by demonizing them. Look up a guy called Daryl Davis; the world would be a better place if everyone had his patience and attitude lol.

However yeah, you get the main point of my comments. He's a murderer. Period. You can't make things better by having him murder the "right" people. That's ridiculous. You either:

1) Proceed like nothing has changed.

2) Have his usual methods now have consequences. Have more nuanced Max series that deal that, perhaps?

3) Just drop the character.

Definitely don't make him a black, gay woman who kills white supremacists (you didn't say this, but another person did). How would this change the problem with the Punisher? Do we now want extremist activists killing those they deem as evil, now?

[Agent Z]

Embarrassing Castle and throwing actual shade at him, like having him torture the wrong person or some such, are two entirely different things.

Come back when you can show me a scan of him killing a sympathetic character or innocent person

There is no difference. In both scenarios, Castle is depicted as incompetent and harmful to a sympathetic character. No one is going to come away from either story thinking the Punisher is heroic let alone effective. The images I posted had him trying to kill a bunch of kids for a relatively harmless crime and then getting punched in the stomach. Having him torturing the wrong person or killing an innocent is not the only way to throw shade at him. Having him be humiliated by a bunch of kids in a story written by a writer who has vocally expressed dislike of the character is enough shade to block out the sun. You think they'd do something like this to Superman or Captain America?

[TooFlyToFail]

There is no difference. In both scenarios, Castle is depicted as incompetent and harmful to a sympathetic character. No one is going to come away from either story thinking the Punisher is heroic let alone effective. The images I posted had him trying to kill a bunch of kids for a relatively harmless crime and then getting punched in the stomach. Having him torturing the wrong person or killing an innocent is not the only way to throw shade at him. Having him be humiliated by a bunch of kids in a story written by a writer who has vocally expressed dislike of the character is enough shade to block out the sun. You think they'd do something like this to Superman or Captain America?

I think what that poster meant was a serious depiction of complications his actions can cause. A nuanced take, in an actual Punisher book; rather than a joke that can be ignored, in a book the vast majority Punisher fans wouldn't even look at.

[Agent Z]

I think what that poster meant was a serious depiction of complications his actions can cause. A nuanced take, in an actual Punisher book; rather than a joke that can be ignored, in a book the vast majority Punisher fans wouldn't even look at.

I guess it was the "throwing shade" comment that threw me off.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think what that poster meant was a serious depiction of complications his actions can cause. A nuanced take, in an actual Punisher book; rather than a joke that can be ignored, in a book the vast majority Punisher fans wouldn't even look at.

Yeah, pretty much.

We don't even need a nuanced take, really. Just stop sending strawmen up against Castle. Have him actually kill a sympathetic bad guy every now and then, at the very least.

[babyblob]

Have the character as is Frank go after the Proud Boys I said was an amazing idea. To me it would show him taking back the symbol. And while I would enjoy reading that story more on some level then I enjoy him now. I would still say his methods are not right. I did enjoy his older stories and still on some level do. But I dont and never have agreed with his way being right. i enjoy the Death Wish movies but what bronson's character did in those was a crime. so while I would enjoy seeing him go after proud boys it would not be any more right then what he is doing now.

[The_Last_Czarnian]

Nothing. At this point it is already out there. Trust people in the real world not to associate a fictional character with a bunch of yahoos.

[JackDaw]

Have the character as is Frank go after the Proud Boys I said was an amazing idea. To me it would show him taking back the symbol. And while I would enjoy reading that story more on some level then I enjoy him now. I would still say his methods are not right. I did enjoy his older stories and still on some level do. But I dont and never have agreed with his way being right. i enjoy the Death Wish movies but what bronson's character did in those was a crime. so while I would enjoy seeing him go after proud boys it would not be any more right then what he is doing now.

Couldn’t it be argued that going after proud boys would actually be a substantially escalation of what he typically does now??

He typically now goes after major league criminal activity...the sort of people whose typical activities (drug pushing, extortion, protection rackets, etc) actually cause death and destruction, and if tried in court would lead to substantial prison sentences.

99.9 percent of proud boys while being despicable characters don’t murder people, and don’t commit crimes that would lead to substantial prison sentences...targeting them en bloc would I think be a profound escalation of what he’s portrayed as doing now.

But Jeez...even by comic book standards he’s just an ultra weird character, so who knows whether targeting proud boys would work or not? (Defining “work” as leading to more comic sales.)