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  1. #76
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    So then just write better stories, and she wasn't used as a prop for every story. The last thing that Alex needs is to be able to do no better than his big brothers cast offs, that and I doubt that this recent version of Maddy really cares for him at all...

  2. #77
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    I am a more of a Alex Maddy guy but I always liked Alex and Lorna too, but some of the Lorna-stans hate her with Alex, though I am not sure why
    As mentioned, they are rarely treated as equals and Lorna almost always gets the short end of the stick. They may have worked at one point but its a toxic pairing that hasnt done anything for either character in like 30 years. When its revisited, its usually bc the writers dont know what to do with either and so default with pairing them together just because. Its a creative dead end for both characters and it doesnt make any sense to even put them back together

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    This is how I feel. I think that Havok is a tremendous character.

    I just don't like him with Polaris because Polaris tends to end up being used as nothing more than a prop for Havok's stories.

    Personally, I would like to see Havok end up with Madalyne Pyre. I think that they have great chemistry togather, and Alex is one of the few characters left who treats Maddie as if she is her own person worth saving and redeeming. Can't really say that about the rest of the X-Men.
    I prefer him over Scott at this point although that may not be saying anything.

    Agreed and it would be bad enough if Lorna was just there to prop up Alex, but his stories tend to actively hurt her like blaming her for the Malice possession or leaving her at the altar. There's a reason she's painted as the crazy ex-girlfriend now. And frankly, Alex doesn't come out smelling like roses either in this story even if the writers intended us to be sympathetic towards him.

    I think Alex did have good chemistry with Maddie, unlike with Lorna and I think part of the issue was that by the time Alex and Lorna were really part of the X-Men during the Silver Age, the book was cancelled so we never really got to see them together or why one was attracted to the other. It was just a given they were a couple and there were only brief looks into their lives together over the years, most of which resulted in the ease of their lives being broken up because one or the other (usually Lorna) would get possessed. Although I frankly don't really see Maddie as her own individual character. When your character only exists to replace a far superior and beloved one, and you literally look identical to her and were the sole survivor of a plane crash that occurred the same time she died, you can't really be your own character. Maddie knowing Scott's favorite breakfast was another thing that made no sense until it was finally confirmed that Maddie was a Jean clone who only came to life because the part of Jean that the Phoenix took was given to Maddie. From the very beginning, Maddie was only ever born as a Jean replacement with Jean's memories and consciousness, so I've never seen the need to keep her around when the original is there.

  4. #79
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    I view it as being toxic only with a bad writer, otherwise A/L could be great together...

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    I know that we view Alex/Lorna differently LoganAlppha30X33.

    But, I would say that the two characters have both benefited from being apart.
    Lorna has received some pretty good character work in X-Factor.
    Havok is doing really well over in the Hellions comic. And, before that, Havok was doing well in Astonishing X-Men. Astonishing did some really great work with Havok.

  6. #81
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    Lorna for the most part has just followed Magneto around and obeyed him without question so her bit is questionable and Alex may be doing well though Hellions also shows how little the rest of the X-men think of him, that they'd allow Sinister to be the one to help him...

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I prefer him over Scott at this point although that may not be saying anything.

    Agreed and it would be bad enough if Lorna was just there to prop up Alex, but his stories tend to actively hurt her like blaming her for the Malice possession or leaving her at the altar. There's a reason she's painted as the crazy ex-girlfriend now. And frankly, Alex doesn't come out smelling like roses either in this story even if the writers intended us to be sympathetic towards him.

    I think Alex did have good chemistry with Maddie, unlike with Lorna and I think part of the issue was that by the time Alex and Lorna were really part of the X-Men during the Silver Age, the book was cancelled so we never really got to see them together or why one was attracted to the other. It was just a given they were a couple and there were only brief looks into their lives together over the years, most of which resulted in the ease of their lives being broken up because one or the other (usually Lorna) would get possessed. Although I frankly don't really see Maddie as her own individual character. When your character only exists to replace a far superior and beloved one, and you literally look identical to her and were the sole survivor of a plane crash that occurred the same time she died, you can't really be your own character. Maddie knowing Scott's favorite breakfast was another thing that made no sense until it was finally confirmed that Maddie was a Jean clone who only came to life because the part of Jean that the Phoenix took was given to Maddie. From the very beginning, Maddie was only ever born as a Jean replacement with Jean's memories and consciousness, so I've never seen the need to keep her around when the original is there.
    I just don't see Jean as the better character, her Silver age never did much, and for me personally all the cool stuff Jean ever did, it wasn't her. She wasn't Phoenix, she isn't Maddy, those were the high water red headed X-Men points. It appeared the Simonsons tried to make Jean cool by incorporating Phoenix and Maddy into Jean which made it worse.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    I just don't see Jean as the better character, her Silver age never did much, and for me personally all the cool stuff Jean ever did, it wasn't her. She wasn't Phoenix, she isn't Maddy, those were the high water red headed X-Men points. It appeared the Simonsons tried to make Jean cool by incorporating Phoenix and Maddy into Jean which made it worse.
    All Silver Age females were treated badly. I'm not judging the worth of characters like Jean, Sue, or Wanda based on their depiction during that decade. Jean is basically Phoenix, no matter what the writers claim now, especially considering it gets retconned every decade or so. To this day, The Dark Phoenix Saga is considered Jean's story, and plenty of writers like Claremont, Morrison, etc. basically wrote Jean like she was the original Phoenix since that was the original intention. And even Inferno blurred the lines between those three identities (Jean, Phoenix, Maddie) and flat out said that Phoenix and Maddie were extensions of the original Jean.

    I would never say Maddie was one of the high X-Men points. If anything, she's considered one of the places where Claremont really jumped the ship, introducing an identical doppelganger but pretending she was never connected to Jean. There's a reason Maddie has an almost nonexistent fanbase even amongst hardcore comic readers. Jean was Phoenix and Maddie so Claremont and Simonson making those connections wasn't really out of place at all and it helps to clean up the X-Men mythos.

  9. #84
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    Not to upset Adam X the poster but did the universe need another Summers brother, couldn't that sibling just have been Vulcan which was wild enough as it is. I never got Adam-X because I never got what he offered that we didn't get from Longshot and Shatterstar because he seemed like a merging of the two of them. Are these X-Men legends stories cannon? I am just wondering how it will affect the Summers family dynamic.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    Not to upset Adam X the poster but did the universe need another Summers brother, couldn't that sibling just have been Vulcan which was wild enough as it is. I never got Adam-X because I never got what he offered that we didn't get from Longshot and Shatterstar because he seemed like a merging of the two of them. Are these X-Men legends stories cannon? I am just wondering how it will affect the Summers family dynamic.
    I understand what you are saying, but Nicieza was robbed from his story when vulcan was created.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    I understand what you are saying, but Nicieza was robbed from his story when vulcan was created.
    Nicieza had been off X-men for 10 years. He wasnt robbed of anything

  12. #87
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    mentioned in the Maddy thread earlier but as stupid as the Inverted Alex storyline is, it is the reason behind him being on the team. The team is made up basically of outsiders. Greycrow as former leader of the Marauders isn't friendly with many people on Krakoa, Psylocke is problematic because a vast majority of Psylocke's interactions with the other X-Men was Betsy. No one likes Empath, and Nanny and Orphan Maker are kind of insane. Alex needed something to justify his placement on this team, from a meta standpoint, stupid inversion is it. Hopefully by the time (hopefully soon) that the Inversion is dealt with (still hoping Maddy helps fix Alex while he fights for her place on Krakoa), he will choose to stay on the team, preferring them over the "good" (but hypocritical/self righteous) people of Krakoa that shunned him earlier. I think that is why we got the scene earlier with Alex asking why he is still stuck on this team, growing to Alex choosing to be a Hellion and rejecting X-Man membership.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    mentioned in the Maddy thread earlier but as stupid as the Inverted Alex storyline is, it is the reason behind him being on the team. The team is made up basically of outsiders. Greycrow as former leader of the Marauders isn't friendly with many people on Krakoa, Psylocke is problematic because a vast majority of Psylocke's interactions with the other X-Men was Betsy. No one likes Empath, and Nanny and Orphan Maker are kind of insane. Alex needed something to justify his placement on this team, from a meta standpoint, stupid inversion is it. Hopefully by the time (hopefully soon) that the Inversion is dealt with (still hoping Maddy helps fix Alex while he fights for her place on Krakoa), he will choose to stay on the team, preferring them over the "good" (but hypocritical/self righteous) people of Krakoa that shunned him earlier. I think that is why we got the scene earlier with Alex asking why he is still stuck on this team, growing to Alex choosing to be a Hellion and rejecting X-Man membership.
    Im not sure there is anything to fix with Alex. He had one relapse in the first issue and literally nothing since then. Im almost convinced that was staged by Sinister to get him on the Hellions. I dont think there is anything wrong with Alex bc he hasnt had any internal struggle or demons to battle

  14. #89
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    I might tend to agree but Maddy noticed that there was something wrong with Alex during their brief interaction, she tried to help him a bit but I get the feeling the work isn't done. No Alex isn't acting like A=hole inverted but Zeb has brought it up three times in what 10 issues so there is something going on there.

  15. #90
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    I wonder if the problem with Alex is that the inversion, dumb as it was ultimately rendered, was caused by magic, or hex magic, or whatever that was -- and then the fixing of it was based on Emma using Lorna's memories of Alex to try and cover it over. Alex said right after the "treatment" that he could feel the other version of him screaming underneath to get out. That makes for a psychic band-aid over a magic/hex-magic based wound, and maybe even explains why Maddy could sense something was off in him that wasn't her doing. Of course getting resurrected maybe throws a wild card into the situation too.... and so at this point I'd mainly just hope that Wells gets to be the one who resolves Alex's head, and that it doesn't get passed off to another writer who... twists it elsewhere.

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