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  1. #61
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That’s not the point. Regardless of how she came off, the very placement is the problem. Imagine making Nightwing a supporting character in Robin and trying to claim that makes him an important omega level player lol. This is the problem with Oracle. Too many readers are content with Oracle as we knew it cause really is gets her out of the way. Readers will criticize her being Batgirl, and claim her less important, but then defend her as Batgirl support for Batgirl.
    I mean, I'd be fine with him being a supporting character in Robin? He'd probably still be in other books where he's doing stuff other than bouncing off the current Robin.

    I thought Bryan Q. Miller wrote her well.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Again: why not reframe it in a way where the “support” activities become a basis for (a different kind of) action in their own right? Instead of presenting Oracle's activities as Barbara sitting in front of a keyboard and talking, present them as Barbara logging into a digital world where her Oracle persona ends up doing the investigations and communications and so on in the same sort of manner that Batgirl would do in the physical world? That would let Oracle be the lead in the title, rather than a support character for some other lead.

    Especially if, after an online session, she then suits up as Batgirl to follow up on whatever she did while she was online. That is, she serves as “support” for herself.

    In short, make Oracle's activities interesting enough to be the focus of adventures in their own right.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 01-17-2021 at 05:23 PM.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    and what I'm beginning to find out is that everyone likes the idea of Barbara as Batgirl, but no one really knows what to do with it.
    But would it be better with one of the other Batgirls?
    Steph as Batgirl isn't that much different from Babs as Batgirl, and with Cass they seem to mostly redo her development from pre flashpoint.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    For what it's worth I'm with you. I posted a more even minded opinion earlier and that's my "official" stance, but in all honesty.....I know Babs-as-Batgirl has its fans and I'm not trying to diminish Babs in the role, but I really don't see what it adds to the character today. She's not often involved in the big DC Crisis style events like she was as Oracle, has a smaller role in the Bat events, doesn't pop up in random books every few weeks. Doesn't work with the League, or anyone else outside of Gotham really. Her sales aren't any better or stable than the BoP's usually were, her stories generally aren't as good and certainly aren't as unique.

    And the idea that Oracle is pointless now is....kinda odd. Have we not spent years dealing with the dangers posed by cyber attacks to elections and businesses and individuals? Have we not, just last month, had to deal with a massive hack that has potentially put billions of dollars and millions of people's private data in danger? Have we not been discussing for the last few weeks our rights as citizens in a digital space?

    Oracle is just Bruce's secretary? No. Oracle is the person who can access every defense network on earth, every military drone, every nuke, spy satellite, anyone's information and location, every phone and everything on it. That's not a secretary, that's an Omega level threat. Is it boring to look at in a comic book? Only if the writer and artist are bad at their jobs.

    I'm not saying Babs has to go back in the chair and pretend it's 2005 again. But pretending it's 1968 doesn't seem to really be working out all that well either and outside of nostalgia I don't see the appeal.
    Yeah, Oracle is arguably far more relevant now than when she was created. It's another example of DC's relentless nostalgia holding them back from growth.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That’s not the point. Regardless of how she came off, the very placement is the problem. Imagine making Nightwing a supporting character in Robin and trying to claim that makes him an important omega level player lol. This is what’s disingenuous about Oracle. Too many readers are content with Oracle as we knew it cause really is gets her out of the way. Readers will criticize her being Batgirl, and claim her less important, but then defend her as Batgirl support for Batgirl.
    "Oracle was just Batgirl support" is historical revisionism.

  6. #66
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    Batgirl is very much a supporting character for Batman, not that far different from Oracle. I mean if Batgirl had really been written as a standalone heroine who has operated independently from Batman for decades since her inception, who are her noticable villains? This arguement about Batgirl not being a sidekick mantle is silly. The character is popular largely due to association with the main guy. Without that association, less people would read her solo comics. Babs being Batgirl is nowhere near comparable to Bruce - the main guy - being Batman.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 01-18-2021 at 10:39 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Batgirl is very much a supporting character for Batman, not that far different from Oracle.
    The difference is that Batgirl can have solo stories, while the while as Oracle she need someone else (usually Black Canary) to be her legs.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The difference is that Batgirl can have solo stories, while the while as Oracle she need someone else (usually Black Canary) to be her legs.
    Batgirl can have solo stories if/when she can hold books. Otherwise she is just another supporting character for Batman and the difference between Batgirl without her own solo and Oracle is not that much. And what makes her books stand out from Batman, NW or RH books? In the end her solos are just spin off. Her character isnt as interesting as other popular Batfam members. If Batman mainline comics dont sell, Batgirl would have no where to go. Batgirl was originally designed to draw in a certain demographics to read Batman comics, not to hold her own comics.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 01-19-2021 at 12:08 AM.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The difference is that Batgirl can have solo stories, while the while as Oracle she need someone else (usually Black Canary) to be her legs.
    Did you ever read Elseworlds' Finest?

    Oracle doesn't have to be a supporting character. Neither does Batgirl. And Barbara Gordon doesn't need to choose one or the other.
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  10. #70
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    I'm a fan of her as Oracle, but for me, it just became superfluous when the Rebirth ongoing started quite honestly. None of the writers really had a good new status quo agenda like Gail and the Burnside run. It just felt Babs was running around in circles reusing plots from the prior volume. More, none of the other Batgirls (Cass/Steph) never really showed up until the final issue and even then their appearance felt shoe-horned in.

    That's not to say Vol. 1 had its own problems. The first issues were shakey and the "You were always meant to be Batgirl" line always rubbed me the wrong way. Then Gail got fired and the series was tripped up before she came back. In all honesty, the best issues of Gail's on Batgirl weren't even the canon ones. Her Nightwing/Oracle #1-2 and Future's End: Batgirl #1 just felt leagues better than the actual run. I do give Gail credit for establishing rogues more for Babs to deal with and a supporting cast.

    The Burnside run had its own problems, but nowadays it feels tainted with the allegations of Cameron Stewart and the lack of impact the end had. It just seems the whole move of Babs back as Batgirl seems cursed.
    And behold I shall be a blight upon the land and everything I touch shall wither and die.

  11. #71
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    There's also the side effect of devolving the other Batgirls too in Stephanie and Cass. Both had to be downgraded to supporting roles and their relationship with Babs cut. Steph at the very least had some interaction, but curiously that was lost in the Rebirth Volume. The real curious oddity is Cassandra. You have Detective Comics introducing a concept of Babs mentoring Cass in it. But none of that is ever carried over in the actual comic or addressed. Likewise, both made to look inferior compared to Babs. Like their times were nothing more than "temporary" which is just a grand insult to both characters.

    So yeah, I find that not only Babs needs to outgrow being Batgirl (again), but that Cass/Steph deserve the title back after the needless move back in 2011. For the Batgirl title used to be up there as a legacy role. In 2011 until last year it so felt like an iron vice was placed on it that only Babs can be the only Batgirl.
    And behold I shall be a blight upon the land and everything I touch shall wither and die.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Batgirl can have solo stories if/when she can hold books.
    She was able to hold a book for roughly 100 issues since Flashpoint (despite the often weak writing). And I'm pretty sure they will announce some form of Batgirl or Birds of Prey type book soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    If Batman mainline comics dont sell, Batgirl would have no where to go.
    That's basically the same with the rest of the Batfamily, and wouldn't really change if she was Oracle.
    Last edited by Aahz; 01-19-2021 at 02:37 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Her character isnt as interesting as other popular Batfam members.
    Are the other Batgirls more interesting?
    Steph as Batigirl is not that differnt to Barbara as Batgirl, the only unique thing she has is being the Daughter of Clue Master, but Clue Master is also not exactly a great villain.

    Cass was unigue but due to the reboot they are kind of stuck with redoing her development from her pre flashpoint series, and even back than they didn't really seem to have a good idea what to do with her after that.

  14. #74
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    It seems Barbara won't outgrow Batgirl. She is Batgirl and Oracle in Future State.

    In Next Batman (Batgirls story), she is usually called Oracle. In Future State Nightwing, she appears as Batgirl with a new suit.


    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Batgirl can have solo stories if/when she can hold books. Otherwise she is just another supporting character for Batman and the difference between Batgirl without her own solo and Oracle is not that much. And what makes her books stand out from Batman, NW or RH books? In the end her solos are just spin off. Her character isnt as interesting as other popular Batfam members. If Batman mainline comics dont sell, Batgirl would have no where to go. Batgirl was originally designed to draw in a certain demographics to read Batman comics, not to hold her own comics.
    This is true. If Batgirl can't mantain a solo, she just become a supporting character.

    As a supporting character, Batgirl is less interesting than Oracle, since she would only be another street fighter in the Batfamily.
    Last edited by Konja7; 01-19-2021 at 04:38 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Are the other Batgirls more interesting?
    Steph as Batigirl is not that differnt to Barbara as Batgirl, the only unique thing she has is being the Daughter of Clue Master, but Clue Master is also not exactly a great villain.

    Cass was unigue but due to the reboot they are kind of stuck with redoing her development from her pre flashpoint series, and even back than they didn't really seem to have a good idea what to do with her after that.
    I wouldn't say the other Batgirls are more interesting.

    However, I think DC tries to give Barbara a "younger" personality when she's Batgirl. I don't usually like that for Barbara (since I like when she had a more mature personality).

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