At what point should Barbara "outgrow" Batgirl?

[km_sus]

As we begin to reach the ten year anniversary of the New 52 reboot, I thought we should look back at a controversial (at least among Batgirl fans) decision that was made during the reboot: making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.

I'd like to ask everyone what their opinion on Barbara as Batgirl is. How do you feel about her solo series from Simone to Castellucci? Do you prefer her as Batgirl or Oracle? What do you think about her future in splitting her time between Oracle in Tynion's 'Batman' and as Batgirl in Taylor's 'Nightwing'?

For me, I always felt becoming Batgirl again was a major regression for Barbara, akin to putting Dick back in booties. It was a move that not only eliminated Stephanie and Cassandra from canon, but eventually hurt Barbara's character as they moved into the Burnside era. I ask myself this question: what role makes Barbara more valuable? As Batgirl she isn't the strongest, she isn't the best detective, she isn't the edgiest, she isn't the most interesting... she has incredibly strong morals - but she didn't need to be Batgirl for that. I'm not an advocate for disabling her again (she's technically still disabled anyway, her injury hasn't gone away), but I think Barbara has outgrown her role as Batgirl.

I know there are Barbara Batgirl fans out there however - and I would genuinely like to hear what you have to say on the matter.

[Aahz]

Problem is that "outgrowing" Batgirl will be almost certainly a step down for the character.

As Oracle she might be more important in universe, but she is also only a support character and will very likely not have a solo comic, and Birds of Prey has not been a successful book in quite some time.

There is also no bigger mantle she could take over, Batwoman is less iconic than Batgirl and I don't think DC could give that mantle to a non LGBT anytime soon without a lot of bad press.

And a creating a new mantle is not that easy like we have seen with Tim and Cass.

[Godlike13]

When she can continue to see more, or at the very least, the same level of opportunities and support as not Batgirl. Overall her return had it ups and downs, but for the most part was successful. The Burnside era is probably the most generally popular run any Batgirl has seen since Batgirl Year One, and when we start seeing more of Batgirl in other media I thinks it’s going be really influential there.

[bat39]

When it comes to what makes Barbara as Batgirl stand out from the rest of the Bat-family, I guess it might simply be the fact that she's the most 'normal' of the bunch!

The Robins all have their tragic backstories and were taken in by Batman as his 'adopted sons'/wards. Batwoman is an ex-military cadet and Batman's cousin. Cass Cain as Batgirl was the daughter of an assassin and a living weapon. Steph is the daughter of a supervillain, already a hero in her own right and an ex-Robin to boot!

Compared to all that, Barbara is pretty much the everywoman. Sure, she is the police commissioner's daughter. But she led a pretty normal life, and in most continuities has had a pretty normal civilian career. She puts on the cape and cowl not because of some tragedy in her life, or because she's the heir to Batman, or whatever, but simply because she wanted to help out. Psychologically speaking, she's a pretty normal woman - not driven or obsessed or with any number of the psychological issues that some members of the family have.

[CPSparkles]

She shouldn't. Cass and Steph fans always start threads like this. Batgirl isn't and shouldn't be like Robin.

There isn't a right time to step away from an iconic and well known mantle.

What do you suggest she grow into? What position is a step up from batgirl.

I for one am glad that hamada is going ahead with the Barbara Gordon Batgirl movie Not a fan of multiple Batgirls and hopefully that will put a stop to the recent shallow attempt to have multiple batgirls who aren't actually batgirls

[Frontier]

When she can continue to see more, or at the very least, the same level of opportunities and support as not Batgirl. Overall her return had it ups and downs, but for the most part was successful. The Burnside era is probably the most generally popular run any Batgirl has seen since Batgirl Year One, and when we start seeing more of Batgirl in other media I thinks it’s going be really influential there.

They've definitely been using the Burnside design in recent adaptions but probably because it makes the most sense for a rookie vigilante Batgirl that she ends up being in those stories. If the Murphy look sticks around we might see it start popping up, her Gotham Knights suit seems inspired by it (especially with the mask).

She shouldn't. Cass and Steph fans always start threads like this. Batgirl isn't and shouldn't be like Robin.

There isn't a right time to step away from an iconic and well known mantle.

What do you suggest she grow into? What position is a step up from batgirl.

Batgirl isn't like Robin but the legacy aspect has happened and is now a part of the mantle.

I don't think BoP would have happened without her as Oracle.

Compared to all that, Barbara is pretty much the everywoman. Sure, she is the police commissioner's daughter. But she led a pretty normal life, and in most continuities has had a pretty normal civilian career. She puts on the cape and cowl not because of some tragedy in her life, or because she's the heir to Batman, or whatever, but simply because she wanted to help out. Psychologically speaking, she's a pretty normal woman - not driven or obsessed or with any number of the psychological issues that some members of the family have.

I think Babs has a temper and some repressed anger issues but otherwise nothing too debilitating.

[AmiMizuno]

I mean wasn't Oracle starting to get popular? While Babs doesn't need to drop the Batgirl mantle. I often wonder what would happen if they just have her be Oracle more than Batgirl. Taylor will have her be both. So I wonder how that will do

[CPSparkles]

@ Frontier The legacy aspect has happened and it was waked back to it's most iconic holder now lets nip it in the bud. Look at the mess that is Robin with Damian and Tim morphing into the same characters at times. That is no good.

It's better for Cass and Steph to carry on cultivating their independent ids. Look what we have now. Babs holding on two mantles. A situation which i doubt we'd be in if not for fans constantly pushing for Cass/steph as batgirls and higher ups trying to pander to them

[Vakanai]

As we begin to reach the ten year anniversary of the New 52 reboot, I thought we should look back at a controversial (at least among Batgirl fans) decision that was made during the reboot: making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.

I'd like to ask everyone what their opinion on Barbara as Batgirl is. How do you feel about her solo series from Simone to Castellucci? Do you prefer her as Batgirl or Oracle? What do you think about her future in splitting her time between Oracle in Tynion's 'Batman' and as Batgirl in Taylor's 'Nightwing'?

For me, I always felt becoming Batgirl again was a major regression for Barbara, akin to putting Dick back in booties. It was a move that not only eliminated Stephanie and Cassandra from canon, but eventually hurt Barbara's character as they moved into the Burnside era. I ask myself this question: what role makes Barbara more valuable? As Batgirl she isn't the strongest, she isn't the best detective, she isn't the edgiest, she isn't the most interesting... she has incredibly strong morals - but she didn't need to be Batgirl for that. I'm not an advocate for disabling her again (she's technically still disabled anyway, her injury hasn't gone away), but I think Barbara has outgrown her role as Batgirl.

I know there are Barbara Batgirl fans out there however - and I would genuinely like to hear what you have to say on the matter.

Barbara shouldn't "outgrow" being Batgirl any more than Bruce should outgrow being Batman. The premise is just silly.

[km_sus]

Barbara shouldn't "outgrow" being Batgirl any more than Bruce should outgrow being Batman. The premise is just silly.

Why exactly is it "silly"? Personally I always viewed Barbara becoming Batgirl again as a step down. Keep in mind that prior to Flashpoint, Barbara had been Oracle for just as long as she had been Batgirl, meaning she had "outgrown" the role for quite some time. Yes, I know the circumstances in which she was forced to stop being Batgirl was cruel - and while Barbara had it the worst, she's hardly the only Bat character to be callously outed from their role: Jason, Tim, Cass, poor Stephanie wasn't even a Batgirl yet before they decided to violently kill her off.

The Batgirl mantle isn't even "hers" in the first place. Batgirl has always been a legacy mantle. Barbara wasn't the first Batgirl and she wasn't the last. Not comparable to Bruce imo.

Honestly I find it unsettling that characters like Steph and Cass are required to "move on" from the mantle, but Barbara is allowed to stay Batgirl because she's "iconic". If the only reason Barbara should be Batgirl is because she's the most recognisable, then it shows me there's not much reason for her to be Batgirl. That's the crux of my argument anyway; Barbara hasn't had many good stories since she became Batgirl again. I know, it's all subjective, but aside from Simone and Scott who tried to carry over traits from the mature and independent woman Barbara had become, her older personality was slowly eroded away through editorial interference - the Barbara as Batgirl of today isn't really recognisable as the person she was ten/fifteen years ago.

I'm confused when people say that Oracle's role is outdated anyway. I feel that no one in the family right now provided what Oracle did. I'm not saying we should put her back in the chair or that she should stop crimefighting - and I know that Barbara fans want her to stay in the spotlight and not fade away into the confinement of a clocktower, but I'm speaking honestly when I say I don't know what benefit Barbara has by staying Batgirl. Editorial clearly has no idea, as showcased by the past ten years of stories - and what I'm beginning to find out is that everyone likes the idea of Barbara as Batgirl, but no one really knows what to do with it.

[Godlike13]

We have seen the likes of Alfred to Fox do what Oracle did. And even with Oracle back, she doesn’t do crap. Cause unhackable tech lol. The only purpose she has served being back is to communicate between the Batfamily. She’s basically Batman’s secretary now. Times have changed, technology has advanced, and the person on the computer is not a unique or novel role. Even BoP moved on from Oracle. Editorial has no more idea what to do with Oracle then they do with Batgirl. Actually that might not be true. They seem to have an idea for Batgirl, and given what they have done with Oracle so far, you can guess what their motivation really was in making her Oracle again. And it wasn’t cause they had big plans for Oracle. They haven’t known what to do with Oracle for a long time, and defaults to just throwing her in supporting roles. I’m bored of Batgirl, but until they actually see Oracle as something worth putting effort into it is always going to be a step down.

And just because you deem being the most recognizable Batgirl not a good enough reason doesn't actually invalidate the reasoning. Also it’s not 2005. She shouldn’t be the same as she was over a decade ago. Not as Batgirl or Oracle.

[spatterdasher]

I think Barbara should stick with the Oracle moniker, but that doesn't mean she can't DO Batgirl stuff. Spoiler and Orphan are both acting as Batgirl right now but also have their individual monikers to distinguish them, why not do the same with Oracle? Give Barbara a cool new outfit redesign with some green accents and let her be Oracle on the field as well as at the computer. That way we get three Batgirls.

[km_sus]

In general, I'm very opposed to any sort of regression or "going back" for a character. Once the cat's out of the bag there's no trying to put it back. It's why I don't like characters like Tim becoming Robin or Barbara being Batgirl again (even though she's been Batgirl again for ten years). And since someone else said it: yes, I am a Cass fan - but I don't think she should go back to being Batgirl. She's fine as Black Bat, she just needed a better costume.

They haven’t known what to do with Oracle for a long time, and defaults to just throwing her in supporting roles. I’m bored of Batgirl, but until they actually see Oracle as something worth putting effort into it is always going to be a step down. And just because you deem being the most recognizable Batgirl not a good enough reason doesn't actually invalidate the reasoning. Also it’s not 2005. She shouldn’t be the same as she was over a decade ago. Not as Batgirl or Oracle.

What I'm getting from this and this:

I think Barbara should stick with the Oracle moniker, but that doesn't mean she can't DO Batgirl stuff. Spoiler and Orphan are both acting as Batgirl right now but also have their individual monikers to distinguish them, why not do the same with Oracle? Give Barbara a cool new outfit redesign with some green accents and let her be Oracle on the field as well as at the computer.

... is that Barbara needs an evolution of some kind.

I know there's a knee-jerk reaction when I say that Barbara should leave Batgirl behind, but I'm still not saying that she just go back to Oracle. If there's one thing I'm excited for in Taylor's upcoming Nightwing book is the possibility that Barbara might actually forge out a new identity and role in the bat family. If Oracle is outdated and Batgirl isn't unique, then she needs something new.

I know it's obvious that I don't like Barbara as Batgirl, but "outgrowing" Batgirl doesn't need to be a bad thing. I just think that Barbara doesn't need Batgirl anymore.

[Dataweaver]

In general, I'm very opposed to any sort of regression or "going back" for a character. Once the cat's out of the bag there's no trying to put it back. It's why I don't like characters like Tim becoming Robin or Barbara being Batgirl again (even though she's been Batgirl again for ten years). And since someone else said it: yes, I am a Cass fan - but I don't think she should go back to being Batgirl. She's fine as Black Bat, she just needed a better costume.



What I'm getting from this and this:



... is that Barbara needs an evolution of some kind.

I know there's a knee-jerk reaction when I say that Barbara should leave Batgirl behind, but I'm still not saying that she just go back to Oracle. If there's one thing I'm excited for in Taylor's upcoming Nightwing book is the possibility that Barbara might actually forge out a new identity and role in the bat family. If Oracle is outdated and Batgirl isn't unique, then she needs something new.

I know it's obvious that I don't like Barbara as Batgirl, but "outgrowing" Batgirl doesn't need to be a bad thing. I just think that Barbara doesn't need Batgirl anymore.

Setting aside the antipathy for Barbara as Batgirl, I do think there's room to do more with Barbara as Oracle. They could, for example, make her the first netrunning superhero. Comics are a visual medium, and having someone **** around in front of a computer screen and talk about what she's doing can only go so far. But if you present her online activities as if they were taking place in a Tron-like digital landscape, turning a hacking session into the visual equivalent of a night patrol of Gotham City, you could do something about that impression that Oracle is “just Batman's secretary”.

It needn't even be literal netrunning in the classic cyberpunk sense; you could make it clear to the reader that the “cyberspace scenes” are purely metaphorical, merely a way to present in a visually interesting manner what Babs is doing when she's hacking. That said, making her an actual netrunner who can interact with the digital world through some sort of virtual reality and/or augmented reality interface could be interesting, too. Maybe even leverage the “miracle cure” that have her back the use of her legs as the basis for a “net-jacking” interface.

That said, I wouldn't take away the Batgirl thing. Oracle works well as an online persona; but there will be times when Barbara needs to get physical. In the Birds of Prey, that's where Black Canary and, later, Huntress came in; they did the physical work that Babs couldn't because of her wheelchair. But as a solo heroine, she'd need to do that sort of stuff herself. And “Batgirl” works well for that side of things.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Batgirl mantle isn't even "hers" in the first place. Batgirl has always been a legacy mantle. Barbara wasn't the first Batgirl and she wasn't the last. Not comparable to Bruce imo.

Technically, "Batgirl" is different from "Bat-Girl"

She's not the first, but she took off in a way Kathy and Betty before her didn't manage. There is a reason they were phased out and she was brought in, and she was cemented more than they were thanks to other media like Batman '66 and BTAS. So while she isn't quite comparable to Bruce or even Dick as Robin, I'd say she's very close. Especially as she made three major other media* appearances before Cass was even invented, and her predecessors were never as big of a deal as she was.

*Batman & Robin being the third, even though it sucks and she's not straight up Barbara Gordon. But she skews closer to Babs than Betty and was actually named "Barbara"