At what point should Barbara "outgrow" Batgirl?

[John Venus]

Did you ever read Elseworlds' Finest?

Oracle doesn't have to be a supporting character. Neither does Batgirl. And Barbara Gordon doesn't need to choose one or the other.

Yeah but she was essentially that universe's Batman with Bruce serving as her Alfred.

The difference is that Batgirl can have solo stories, while the while as Oracle she need someone else (usually Black Canary) to be her legs.

You say that like it's a bad thing. We got a great BoP series out of it. She was an information broker for the Bat Family, the JLA and got to be one of the protagonists for BoP. As Batgirl she's stuck dealing with small fry.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah but she was essentially that universe's Batman with Bruce serving as her Alfred.

While true, it's not really relevant to my point: Elseworlds' Finest illustrates how Barbara doesn't have to choose between Batgirl and Oracle.

You say that like it's a bad thing. We got a great BoP series out of it. She was an information broker for the Bat Family, the JLA and got to be one of the protagonists for BoP. As Batgirl she's stuck dealing with small fry.

Having to rely on someone else to do the legwork is problematic if you want Barbara to go solo. Being able to do the legwork herself as Batgirl does help in that regard. But I agree that as Oracle, she was operating in much higher circles than she did after abandoning the Oracle persona. That's why I don't like the either/or mentality in this.

[Aahz]

You say that like it's a bad thing. We got a great BoP series out of it. She was an information broker for the Bat Family, the JLA and got to be one of the protagonists for BoP. As Batgirl she's stuck dealing with small fry.

In BoP the main characters (at least during the Dixon run) was imo Black Canary.

And while she was technically the information broker of the JLA I can't remember her appearing much in that book.

When it comes to the Batfamily, what do you think is better a Nightwing and Batgirl team up or Nightwing with Oracale behind the keyboard?

Batman and Robin (Tim) had iirc rarely Orcale over com when solving regular cases, and during Batfamily events she could still take over the Orcale role when needed.

[Dataweaver]

In BoP the main characters (at least during the Dixon run) was imo Black Canary.

And while she was technically the information broker of the JLA I can't remember her appearing much in that book.

When it comes to the Batfamily, what do you think is better a Nightwing and Batgirl team up or Nightwing with Oracale behind the keyboard?

Batman and Robin (Tim) had iirc rarely Orcale over com when solving regular cases, and during Batfamily events she could still take over the Orcale role when needed.

The main disagreement I have with you here is that the original Birds of Prey very much was both Oracle and Black Canary. At this point, it's moot; but back then, the whole point of the series was the rehabilitation of two women who had each gotten a raw deal in their own way: for Barbara, it was the Killing Joke; for Dinah, it was the Longbow Hunters.

But as I said, at this point it's moot: both of them have fully recovered from their respective disabilities, and that original concept of the Birds of Prey has long since run its course. I don't think that anyone is seriously contemplating putting Barbara back in the wheelchair, anymore than there's any interest in taking away Dinah's Canary Cry.

What I don't get is why people are satisfied with Barbara giving up the information broker thing. You ask which would be better: a Nightwing and Batgirl teamup or Nightwing with Oracle behind the keyboard? My answer is “both”. Let her do her keyboard cowboy thing — something which nobody else in the Bat-family (with the possible exception of Tim) has shown any significant proficiency in — then hit the streets to follow up on those leads.

[John Venus]

While true, it's not really relevant to my point: Elseworlds' Finest illustrates how Barbara doesn't have to choose between Batgirl and Oracle.

Having to rely on someone else to do the legwork is problematic if you want Barbara to go solo. Being able to do the legwork herself as Batgirl does help in that regard. But I agree that as Oracle, she was operating in much higher circles than she did after abandoning the Oracle persona. That's why I don't like the either/or mentality in this.

She was the Bat-God of that universe and the actual Bat God had to be pushed out to make that happen. I don't see a similar thing happening in universe.

The point is, she can still be a protagonist even if someone else does the leg work. Barbara being forced into physical work while still bound to a wheelchair has been the focal point of a few stories. It's not an impediment to story telling but an impetus for one.

In BoP the main characters (at least during the Dixon run) was imo Black Canary.

And while she was technically the information broker of the JLA I can't remember her appearing much in that book.

When it comes to the Batfamily, what do you think is better a Nightwing and Batgirl team up or Nightwing with Oracale behind the keyboard?

Batman and Robin (Tim) had iirc rarely Orcale over com when solving regular cases, and during Batfamily events she could still take over the Orcale role when needed.

You're downplaying Oracle's role a lot in BOP and Bat books. She recruited Dinah, Helena, Zinda and the rest of the Birds. She mentored Cass, Steph and Misfit. 90% of the series was built on the relationship between Barbara and Oracle.

As per Comicvine Barbara as Oracle made 20 appearances in JLA, every other month in 1998 and even had a role in the WW3 arc when Prometheus sought to track her down.

Barbara made appearances as Oracle in Batman, 'Tec, Gotham Knight, Nightwing, Batgirl, Robin, Gotham Knights and that's on top of her appearances in BOP and JLA. She was instrumental in event arcs like Legacy where getting a cure was hinged on her ability to download Ras digital copy of the 'Plague Wheel'. She was the go-to-source for Bat Family whenever they needed information. You can't claim she appeared rarely when there are actual numbers showing her appearances in those books, nevermind the fact that I was a regular reader during that period.

I don't really care about the Nightwing/Babs relationship. She kissed him once in the 70's Bat titled and there was nothing really overt going on back then. It was treated as a crush. Babs as Oracle era was when they really started developing that relationship, especially under Dixon's pen and they even retconned in moments to both character's pasts to make the romance more believable in the present day.

[Godlike13]

What I don't get is why people are satisfied with Barbara giving up the information broker thing. You ask which would be better: a Nightwing and Batgirl teamup or Nightwing with Oracle behind the keyboard? My answer is “both”. Let her do her keyboard cowboy thing — something which nobody else in the Bat-family (with the possible exception of Tim) has shown any significant proficiency in — then hit the streets to follow up on those leads.

Because, and I’m generalizing here, for some Oracle represents being pushed to the side, and for others Oracle is being championed disingenuously to legitimize moving her to the side. The motivation is rarely actually about Oracle. It’s about how Oracle gets her out of the way, and which side of that one falls on.

The keyboard cowboy thing isn’t even much of a thing anymore. Today’s technology is all about accessibility and convenience. Oracle should absolutely incorporate the themes of today’s tech. Rather then be tethered to a desktop, like literally no one is anymore. But it’s never gonna happen, because again the motivation behind Oracle isn’t actually about Oracle. Even within DC. They have done nothing to update the persona or make it more contemporary to better reintroduce it in a new decade. No, they immediately strap her to a desktop and double down on the mundane, secretary like tasks, of Oracle while create plot armor to stop her from actually having an impact doing anything else.

[Drako]

Because, and I’m generalizing here, for some Oracle represents being pushed to the side, and for others Oracle is being championed disingenuously to legitimize moving her to the side. The motivation is rarely actually about Oracle. It’s about how Oracle gets her out of the way, and which side of that one falls on.

The keyboard cowboy thing isn’t even much of a thing anymore. Today’s technology is all about accessibility and convenience. Oracle should absolutely incorporate the themes of today’s tech. Rather then be tethered to a desktop, like literally no one is anymore. But it’s never gonna happen, because again the motivation behind Oracle isn’t actually about Oracle. Even within DC. They have done nothing to update the persona or make it more contemporary to better reintroduce it in a new decade. No, they immediately strap her to a desktop and double down on the mundane, secretary like tasks, of Oracle while create plot armor to stop her from actually having an impact doing anything else.

Yeah. Most people today have a computer on their hand that you can talk to and they will search whatever u want. You don't even need to write anything. That's something we didn't have in the 90s and that's why her role as Oracle was so important.

They already tried to make Oracle an AI right?
To me Oracle could be a AI like Jarvis, made by Babs to help her in the field.

[MajorHoy]

At what point should Barbara "outgrow" Batgirl?

When she's old enough to start collecting Social Security and Medicare benefits . . .

[WonderNight]

I sense there's an increase in fans fighting for there favorites getting the spotlight.

[Frontier]

Yeah. Most people today have a computer on their hand that you can talk to and they will search whatever u want. You don't even need to write anything. That's something we didn't have in the 90s and that's why her role as Oracle was so important.

They already tried to make Oracle an AI right?
To me Oracle could be a AI like Jarvis, made by Babs to help her in the field.

DC Super Hero Girls had Oracle as an AI, almost like her Alfred. The comic AI was evil though.

[Ascended]

I mean, I feel like you're painting a far more negative picture of Oracle compared to how she actually was

That's my thought as well.

That’s not the point. Regardless of how she came off, the very placement is the problem. Imagine making Nightwing a supporting character in Robin and trying to claim that makes him an important omega level player lol.

Depending on how Dick was used it could be. If it saw Dick become the leader of Argus or Checkmate or Spyral or whatever the big organization in DC ends up being, then it would make him a much bigger deal. And while he was co-starring in a book called "Grayson's Angels" or whatever his BoP analogue would be, and playing a supporting member in "Robin" he'd likely be popping into "Action" now and then to give Lois some juicy tidbits, showing up in "JLA" to steer the League in the right direction, and getting cameos in half a dozen other books depending on the month, just like Nick Fury did, and Babs did as Oracle. And you can bet your ass he'd have a big role in the next Crisis. All sounds like a promotion to Dick's in-universe status to me, as well as more panel time and exposure across the DCU.

And that's assuming he didn't have a solo book on top of all that. Dick's a proven solo IP with some of the most consistent sales in DC (Ric notwithstanding), while Babs' history as a solo act wasn't nearly so solid when she became Oracle (and her modern solo sales don't exactly inspire confidence either)

Did things get stale towards the end? Yeah, Babs and everything else at DC back in the late 00's, sure. But that happens to everyone. It happens to Batman. When it happens, you just get a new creative team, you don't nuke the god damn character back to year one.

"Oracle was just Batgirl support" is historical revisionism.

Damn right it is.

Because, and I’m generalizing here, for some Oracle represents being pushed to the side, and for others Oracle is being championed disingenuously to legitimize moving her to the side. The motivation is rarely actually about Oracle. It’s about how Oracle gets her out of the way, and which side of that one falls on.

Perhaps it is for some, but I don't think you can really say what motivations inform everyone's opinions. I don't give a rat's ass about who wears the Batgirl suit, I'm not trying to push Babs aside for anyone because I don't have a dog in that fight. I dislike Steph and while I do like Cass, I don't care what name or suit she uses. So if I'm not trying to push a different Batgirl, who am I pushing Babs aside for? Bottom line is I find Babs as Batgirl boring and redundant and she hasn't done anything interesting since Burnside and nothing that actually matters in even longer, but as Oracle she showed up in a lot of books on a regular basis, held her own title more solidly (she shared it with Dinah, big deal), had better and more unique stories on a more consistent basis, and more status.

In the ten years that Babs has been Batgirl again, she's had one, maybe two, runs that were worth reading. Compared to the years and years of excellent BoP books and roles in things like WWIII, DC 1 Million, and whatever else, and I really fail to see why anyone would want Babs to remain Batgirl. It's fine that people do, and if I were in charge of more than spouting my opinion online I'd respect that, but I really don't get the appeal.

Again, I don't want to pretend it's 2005 and I don't need Babs in the chair (though it is unique and interesting) but rewinding her back to Batgirl hasn't really worked out so why stick with it?

[Godlike13]

Depending on how Dick was used it could be. If it saw Dick become the leader of Argus or Checkmate or Spyral or whatever the big organization in DC ends up being, then it would make him a much bigger deal. And while he was co-starring in a book called "Grayson's Angels" or whatever his BoP analogue would be, and playing a supporting member in "Robin" he'd likely be popping into "Action" now and then to give Lois some juicy tidbits, showing up in "JLA" to steer the League in the right direction, and getting cameos in half a dozen other books depending on the month, just like Nick Fury did, and Babs did as Oracle. And you can bet your ass he'd have a big role in the next Crisis. All sounds like a promotion to Dick's in-universe status to me, as well as more panel time and exposure across the DCU.

And that's assuming he didn't have a solo book on top of all that. Dick's a proven solo IP with some of the most consistent sales in DC (Ric notwithstanding), while Babs' history as a solo act wasn't nearly so solid when she became Oracle (and her modern solo sales don't exactly inspire confidence either)

Did things get stale towards the end? Yeah, Babs and everything else at DC back in the late 00's, sure. But that happens to everyone. It happens to Batman. When it happens, you just get a new creative team, you don't nuke the god damn character back to year one.

That not no how that works, and it’s not how it did work. Your trying to warp being a supporting character into this hypothetical situation but as a supporting character his primary function is to support the lead. So he’s only as important as his lead. Supporting Robin doesn’t turn Nightwing into the leader of other organizations. Robin doesn’t carry that kind of influence. Supporting Batgirl isn’t what lead to BoP or JL. Its what BoP and a stint in the JL ultimately lead to. Sadly. Proving that no matter what Oracle did, or what was being done to those around her, Oracle would never actually be greater or move beyond Batgirl. This is more then just being stale. That was a dead end. Oracle wasn’t something anyone was interested in moving forward with, and even now with her return she still isn’t. As the more and more they prove the motivation for Oracle’s return isn’t about advancing Oracle into a new generation but what her being Oracle allows for.

Perhaps it is for some, but I don't think you can really say what motivations inform everyone's opinions. I don't give a rat's ass about who wears the Batgirl suit, I'm not trying to push Babs aside for anyone because I don't have a dog in that fight. I dislike Steph and while I do like Cass, I don't care what name or suit she uses. So if I'm not trying to push a different Batgirl, who am I pushing Babs aside for? Bottom line is I find Babs as Batgirl boring and redundant and she hasn't done anything interesting since Burnside and nothing that actually matters in even longer, but as Oracle she showed up in a lot of books on a regular basis, held her own title more solidly (she shared it with Dinah, big deal), had better and more unique stories on a more consistent basis, and more status.

In the ten years that Babs has been Batgirl again, she's had one, maybe two, runs that were worth reading. Compared to the years and years of excellent BoP books and roles in things like WWIII, DC 1 Million, and whatever else, and I really fail to see why anyone would want Babs to remain Batgirl. It's fine that people do, and if I were in charge of more than spouting my opinion online I'd respect that, but I really don't get the appeal.

Again, I don't want to pretend it's 2005 and I don't need Babs in the chair (though it is unique and interesting) but rewinding her back to Batgirl hasn't really worked out so why stick with it?

But that’s DC’s motivation. That’s the point. They are not showing that they are going to be doing any better with Oracle. BoP moved on, there no real Oracle stories in sight, and so far her use has just been secretarial. It’s not hard to see why there are those that want her to stay as Batgirl, same reason others want the others to be Batgirl again. It affords a level security, exposer, and story agency that Oracle does not. I’m bored of Batgirl myself, but they don’t seem interested in elevating Oracle beyond just how we knew her decades ago. Falling right back into the same traps and dead ends. My point really isn’t wanting them to keep her Batgirl, it’s do better with Oracle. And that’s never going to happen if we ignore and don’t actually acknowledge the problems and reality that Oracle faced and continues face.

[Frontier]

That not no how that works, and it’s not how it did work. Your trying to warp being a supporting character into this hypothetical situation but as a supporting character his primary function is to support the lead. So he’s only as important as his lead. Supporting Robin doesn’t turn Nightwing into the leader of other organizations. Robin doesn’t carry that kind of influence. Supporting Batgirl isn’t what lead to BoP or JL. Its what BoP and a stint in the JL ultimately lead to. Sadly. Proving that no matter what Oracle did, or what was being done to those around her, Oracle would never actually be greater or move beyond Batgirl. This is more then just being stale. That was a dead end. Oracle wasn’t something anyone was interested in moving forward with, and even now with her return she still isn’t. As the more and more they prove the motivation for Oracle’s return isn’t about advancing Oracle into a new generation but what her being Oracle allows for.

I don't think anyone is saying the be all, end all, of Barbara Gordon as Oracle was supporting Batgirl. It was just an element that showed a different side of her character and developed her as a mentor and maternal figure.

But that’s DC’s motivation. That’s the point. They are not showing that they are going to be doing any better with Oracle. BoP moved on, there no real Oracle stories in sight, and so far her use has just been secretarial. It’s not hard to see why there are those that want her to stay as Batgirl, same reason others want the others to be Batgirl again. It affords a level security, exposer, and story agency that Oracle does not. I’m bored of Batgirl myself, but they don’t seem interested in elevating Oracle beyond just how we knew her decades ago. Falling right back into the same traps and dead ends. My point really isn’t wanting them to keep her Batgirl, it’s do better with Oracle. And that’s never going to happen if we ignore and don’t actually acknowledge the problems and reality that Oracle faced and continues face.

I think at this point she's going to be secure whatever identity they use her in. I think it's too early to say one way or another how Oracle in the modern era will fair since it's still really early. Of course, I guess we disagree on whether Oracle counts as a "secretary," so that might be something that depends on your personal view of what she does.

The BoP have seemingly been put on ice thanks to the movie and the last series, so I don't think they've moved on yet.