At what point should Barbara "outgrow" Batgirl?

[Blue22]

Personally, I don't think she needs to "Outgrow" Batgirl. Nor do I think there needs to be only one Batgirl. I'm fine with the three Batgirls thing we got going on right now. Especially since it means my favorite is Batgirl again and Babs is back in a role that I...honestly thought she was better in. I love Oracle Barbara.

[Flash Gordon]

She's a fictional character, there's no reason for her to ever stop being BATGIRL.

[Vakanai]

As we begin to reach the ten year anniversary of the New 52 reboot, I thought we should look back at a controversial (at least among Batgirl fans) decision that was made during the reboot: making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.

I'd like to ask everyone what their opinion on Barbara as Batgirl is. How do you feel about her solo series from Simone to Castellucci? Do you prefer her as Batgirl or Oracle? What do you think about her future in splitting her time between Oracle in Tynion's 'Batman' and as Batgirl in Taylor's 'Nightwing'?

For me, I always felt becoming Batgirl again was a major regression for Barbara, akin to putting Dick back in booties. It was a move that not only eliminated Stephanie and Cassandra from canon, but eventually hurt Barbara's character as they moved into the Burnside era. I ask myself this question: what role makes Barbara more valuable? As Batgirl she isn't the strongest, she isn't the best detective, she isn't the edgiest, she isn't the most interesting... she has incredibly strong morals - but she didn't need to be Batgirl for that. I'm not an advocate for disabling her again (she's technically still disabled anyway, her injury hasn't gone away), but I think Barbara has outgrown her role as Batgirl.

I know there are Barbara Batgirl fans out there however - and I would genuinely like to hear what you have to say on the matter.

Barbara shouldn't "outgrow" being Batgirl any more than Bruce should outgrow being Batman. The premise is just silly.

[km_sus]

Barbara shouldn't "outgrow" being Batgirl any more than Bruce should outgrow being Batman. The premise is just silly.

Why exactly is it "silly"? Personally I always viewed Barbara becoming Batgirl again as a step down. Keep in mind that prior to Flashpoint, Barbara had been Oracle for just as long as she had been Batgirl, meaning she had "outgrown" the role for quite some time. Yes, I know the circumstances in which she was forced to stop being Batgirl was cruel - and while Barbara had it the worst, she's hardly the only Bat character to be callously outed from their role: Jason, Tim, Cass, poor Stephanie wasn't even a Batgirl yet before they decided to violently kill her off.

The Batgirl mantle isn't even "hers" in the first place. Batgirl has always been a legacy mantle. Barbara wasn't the first Batgirl and she wasn't the last. Not comparable to Bruce imo.

Honestly I find it unsettling that characters like Steph and Cass are required to "move on" from the mantle, but Barbara is allowed to stay Batgirl because she's "iconic". If the only reason Barbara should be Batgirl is because she's the most recognisable, then it shows me there's not much reason for her to be Batgirl. That's the crux of my argument anyway; Barbara hasn't had many good stories since she became Batgirl again. I know, it's all subjective, but aside from Simone and Scott who tried to carry over traits from the mature and independent woman Barbara had become, her older personality was slowly eroded away through editorial interference - the Barbara as Batgirl of today isn't really recognisable as the person she was ten/fifteen years ago.

I'm confused when people say that Oracle's role is outdated anyway. I feel that no one in the family right now provided what Oracle did. I'm not saying we should put her back in the chair or that she should stop crimefighting - and I know that Barbara fans want her to stay in the spotlight and not fade away into the confinement of a clocktower, but I'm speaking honestly when I say I don't know what benefit Barbara has by staying Batgirl. Editorial clearly has no idea, as showcased by the past ten years of stories - and what I'm beginning to find out is that everyone likes the idea of Barbara as Batgirl, but no one really knows what to do with it.

[Godlike13]

We have seen the likes of Alfred to Fox do what Oracle did. And even with Oracle back, she doesn’t do crap. Cause unhackable tech lol. The only purpose she has served being back is to communicate between the Batfamily. She’s basically Batman’s secretary now. Times have changed, technology has advanced, and the person on the computer is not a unique or novel role. Even BoP moved on from Oracle. Editorial has no more idea what to do with Oracle then they do with Batgirl. Actually that might not be true. They seem to have an idea for Batgirl, and given what they have done with Oracle so far, you can guess what their motivation really was in making her Oracle again. And it wasn’t cause they had big plans for Oracle. They haven’t known what to do with Oracle for a long time, and defaults to just throwing her in supporting roles. I’m bored of Batgirl, but until they actually see Oracle as something worth putting effort into it is always going to be a step down.

And just because you deem being the most recognizable Batgirl not a good enough reason doesn't actually invalidate the reasoning. Also it’s not 2005. She shouldn’t be the same as she was over a decade ago. Not as Batgirl or Oracle.

[spatterdasher]

I think Barbara should stick with the Oracle moniker, but that doesn't mean she can't DO Batgirl stuff. Spoiler and Orphan are both acting as Batgirl right now but also have their individual monikers to distinguish them, why not do the same with Oracle? Give Barbara a cool new outfit redesign with some green accents and let her be Oracle on the field as well as at the computer. That way we get three Batgirls.

[km_sus]

In general, I'm very opposed to any sort of regression or "going back" for a character. Once the cat's out of the bag there's no trying to put it back. It's why I don't like characters like Tim becoming Robin or Barbara being Batgirl again (even though she's been Batgirl again for ten years). And since someone else said it: yes, I am a Cass fan - but I don't think she should go back to being Batgirl. She's fine as Black Bat, she just needed a better costume.

They haven’t known what to do with Oracle for a long time, and defaults to just throwing her in supporting roles. I’m bored of Batgirl, but until they actually see Oracle as something worth putting effort into it is always going to be a step down. And just because you deem being the most recognizable Batgirl not a good enough reason doesn't actually invalidate the reasoning. Also it’s not 2005. She shouldn’t be the same as she was over a decade ago. Not as Batgirl or Oracle.

What I'm getting from this and this:

I think Barbara should stick with the Oracle moniker, but that doesn't mean she can't DO Batgirl stuff. Spoiler and Orphan are both acting as Batgirl right now but also have their individual monikers to distinguish them, why not do the same with Oracle? Give Barbara a cool new outfit redesign with some green accents and let her be Oracle on the field as well as at the computer.

... is that Barbara needs an evolution of some kind.

I know there's a knee-jerk reaction when I say that Barbara should leave Batgirl behind, but I'm still not saying that she just go back to Oracle. If there's one thing I'm excited for in Taylor's upcoming Nightwing book is the possibility that Barbara might actually forge out a new identity and role in the bat family. If Oracle is outdated and Batgirl isn't unique, then she needs something new.

I know it's obvious that I don't like Barbara as Batgirl, but "outgrowing" Batgirl doesn't need to be a bad thing. I just think that Barbara doesn't need Batgirl anymore.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Batgirl mantle isn't even "hers" in the first place. Batgirl has always been a legacy mantle. Barbara wasn't the first Batgirl and she wasn't the last. Not comparable to Bruce imo.

Technically, "Batgirl" is different from "Bat-Girl"

She's not the first, but she took off in a way Kathy and Betty before her didn't manage. There is a reason they were phased out and she was brought in, and she was cemented more than they were thanks to other media like Batman '66 and BTAS. So while she isn't quite comparable to Bruce or even Dick as Robin, I'd say she's very close. Especially as she made three major other media* appearances before Cass was even invented, and her predecessors were never as big of a deal as she was.

*Batman & Robin being the third, even though it sucks and she's not straight up Barbara Gordon. But she skews closer to Babs than Betty and was actually named "Barbara"

[km_sus]

Technically, "Batgirl" is different from "Bat-Girl"

That's true. Damn those hyphens! Screwing me over at every turn!

[Jim Kelly]

Unlike Robin, in her original continuity, Barbara Gordon was a grown woman when she became the Dominoed Daredoll. It's not certain how old she was, but she had completed college, was employed as a librarian and seemed old enough to be considered a possible love interest for Bruce and/or Batman (thus Catwoman's jealousy).

It's only later stories that have tried to backdate her as a teen. So why would Babs grow out of being Batgirl, if she was already an adult when she took on the mantel? The only reason would be political correctness--if you buy the argument that women shouldn't call themselves girls. But that would also go for Supergirl and Power Girl

[Alpha]

Unlike Robin, in her original continuity, Barbara Gordon was a grown woman when she became the Dominoed Daredoll. It's not certain how old she was, but she had completed college, was employed as a librarian and seemed old enough to be considered a possible love interest for Bruce and/or Batman (thus Catwoman's jealousy).

It's only later stories that have tried to backdate her as a teen. So why would Babs grow out of being Batgirl, if she was already an adult when she took on the mantel? The only reason would be political correctness--if you buy the argument that women shouldn't call themselves girls. But that would also go for Supergirl and Power Girl

I think it's a pretty good reason, and yes I definitely think Kara should be Superwoman. Karen doesn't appear in enough stories for it to make a difference, but probably should too.

[Frontier]

I think it's a pretty good reason, and yes I definitely think Kara should be Superwoman. Karen doesn't appear in enough stories for it to make a difference, but probably should too.

Well, it depends which version of Kara we're talking about, but I feel like there should be a sizable age gap in terms of presentation between Kara and Karen.

[AtheistInRed]

At what point should Barbara "outgrow" Bargirl?

Never.
10chars

[Restingvoice]

At what point Barbara should outgrow Batgirl? January 1967. Why? 60s Batgirl theme song:
"Batgirrrl, Batgirl!
Are you a chick who fell in from outer space?
Or are you real with a tender warm embrace?
Yaaa, whose baby are you?"
This point of view hasn't changed as far as I can tell, so I'm actually in support of making her younger when she starts in modern interpretation (15 in ASBAR and New 52), since keeping her Batgirl as an adult means she's everyone's baby to the male Bat fam characters and writers in different continuities.
*Sipping bobba tea very loudly*
This is not up to discussion. I'm not discussing anything. I'm out.
*throws empty cup*

[Digifiend]

Unlike Robin, in her original continuity, Barbara Gordon was a grown woman when she became the Dominoed Daredoll. It's not certain how old she was, but she had completed college, was employed as a librarian and seemed old enough to be considered a possible love interest for Bruce and/or Batman (thus Catwoman's jealousy).

It's only later stories that have tried to backdate her as a teen. So why would Babs grow out of being Batgirl, if she was already an adult when she took on the mantel? The only reason would be political correctness--if you buy the argument that women shouldn't call themselves girls. But that would also go for Supergirl and Power Girl

It would apply to Supergirl if she was the same age as Babs and Dick like she should be. But due to being rebooted twice, instead of having one continuous history like the others, she's still a teenager, and thus legitimately a girl. Power Girl ought to be Power Woman now though, especially now that a new teenage Power Girl, Tanya Spears, exists.

There's actually an issue of JSA which addresses why Karen didn't change her name. Cyclone suggests that it's to throw people off. The name says girl, but the costume (with the infamous boob window) says woman, which distracts her enemies!