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  1. #121
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purplevit View Post
    Lol, Cyke sales were not as good as you try to show it.
    Cyke failed and his sales were not much better then Storm.

    .
    Sigh... I only did spot check it so you are right I was wrong about it maintaining above 20,000 for the run which changes it to failure but it is Tyke as I said before and not the adult version. .. Bleh lol
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-18-2021 at 03:37 AM.

  2. #122
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purplevit View Post
    Lol, Cyke sales were not as good as you try to show it.
    Cyke failed and his sales were not much better then Storm.

    Added missed sales to your data:
    119 116 Cyclops 5 $3.99 Marvel 21,874
    147 133 Cyclops 6 $3.99 Marvel 20,115
    120 114 Cyclops 7 $3.99 Marvel 18,371
    145 143 Cyclops 8 $3.99 Marvel 17,146
    133 130 Cyclops 9 $3.99 Marvel 16,287
    143 133 Cyclops 10 $3.99 Marvel 15,091
    148 139 Cyclops 11 $3.99 Marvel 14,481

    Issue 12 was just a part of Black Wortex crossover. The only reason why it sold more.
    With Cyclops they had the starting artist get yoinked early on, and the writer left shortly after, which came with a much different feel for the book. That's a hit most books will suffer from, especially if they happen as quickly as they did.

    Still, no character sells as well as Wolverine does, and that's why he has had a regular solo series and other characters haven't had one to such an extent.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  3. #123
    Extraordinary Member Purplevit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Sigh... I only did spot check it so you are right I was wrong about it maintaining above 20,000 for the run which changes it to failure but it is Tyke as I said before and not the adult version. .. Bleh lol
    I never liked teen Cyke and was really surprised to see him getting solo.

    I don`t think that Cyke is a right character for solo but I would definitely check one about adult Cyke with a good writer and artist. Every character can get at least a mini with a right creative team.

  4. #124
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Still, no character sells as well as Wolverine does, and that's why he has had a regular solo series and other characters haven't had one to such an extent.
    Wolverine isn't a median, Saying characters don't sell as well him is misleading but I already touch on that already. It is like saying White Castle or In and Out isn't successful because they don't have as much stores as McDonalds. They are different levels of success and Wolverine is on the mount rushmore of comic characters. Wolverine is not indicator of what a regular book would do going "Hey everyone is not Wolverine" misleading people in thinking that books are not doing what the rest of the market is doing. Stuff like Cable,X-23, Gambit are or could perform about as well as the norm and I believe they are other X-character who could as well perform at the market norm.

    They aren't too many character in comics can hold solo without it being cancel at some point, And since the 2000s they are many books that use to hold solo numbers that can't anymore. My argument is a little bit in semantics because I don't think Cyclops and some of major X- characters can hold solo in "Wolverine sense" but it isn't because of characters themselves but the market. But I very much believe in a world where Aero and Swordmaster get a book that some of bigger X-names would perform better than those characters (especially back by good creative team) or some of the other stuff Marvel puts out but degrade to inevitable cancellation like everything in market without a good creative team .
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-18-2021 at 04:40 AM.

  5. #125
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Wolverine isn't a median, Saying characters don't sell as well him is misleading but I already touch on that already. It is like saying White Castle or In and Out isn't successful because they don't have as much stores as McDonalds. They are different levels of success and Wolverine is on the mount rushmore of comic characters. Wolverine is not indicator of what a regular book would do going Hey everyone is not Wolverine mislead people in thinking that books are not doing what the rest of the market is doing. Stuff like Cable,X-23, Gambit are perform about as well as the norm.

    They aren't too many character in comics can hold solo without it being cancel at some point, And since the 2000s they are many books that use to hold solo numbers that can't anymore. The argument is a little bit in semantics because I don't Cyclops and some of major X- characters will be hold solo in "Wolverine sense" but it isn't because of characters themselves but the market.
    Well, Wolverine is the one mentioned in the thread title (which is why I mentioned him), but, like Batman, he's the top seller rather than a median.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Wolverine isn't a median, Saying characters don't sell as well him is misleading but I already touch on that already. It is like saying White Castle or In and Out isn't successful because they don't have as much stores as McDonalds. They are different levels of success and Wolverine is on the mount rushmore of comic characters. Wolverine is not indicator of what a regular book would do going "Hey everyone is not Wolverine" misleading people in thinking that books are not doing what the rest of the market is doing. Stuff like Cable,X-23, Gambit are or could perform about as well as the norm and I believe they are other X-character who could as well perform at the market norm.

    They aren't too many character in comics can hold solo without it being cancel at some point, And since the 2000s they are many books that use to hold solo numbers that can't anymore. My argument is a little bit in semantics because I don't think Cyclops and some of major X- characters can hold solo in "Wolverine sense" but it isn't because of characters themselves but the market. But I very much believe in a world where Aero and Swordmaster get a book that some of bigger X-names would perform better than those characters (especially back by good creative team) or some of the other stuff Marvel puts out but degrade to inevitable cancellation like everything in market without a good creative team .
    Yes, that's my argument too, more or less. If someone says x character don't sell, I can acept, but saying they don't work on a creative level is nonsense, imo.

    The most common element brought up on this thread was that "this character is too much ingrained on the x-verse, why would he leave?". I feel like I used Cyclops too much as an example, so I gonna use Jean now.

    Taking the present set up, let's say Jean finds out that Xavier is editing the memories of the resurrected mutants to make them more in line with his goals, she decides that she don't want to be a part of that anymore, so she "hacks" into Cerebro and deletes her backups, she also destroy the DNAs samples they have of her. The Council don't like what she did, if she had mess up she could have deleted everyone's backup, so they put her on trial, her sentence is exile. Two months later they can launch a Jean Grey solo with the character not only out of the x-men but with her family and friend living on a place where she isn't welcome anymore.

    All they have to do to justify why a character isn't on the x-men anymore is have them disagreeing with the rest of the team and leaving, simple like that, it was done several times in different properties.

  7. #127
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I did mention the part about wider businesses, You are okay with Punisher or Dr Strange flopping because you can put out a movie with him, have merchandising with them and when the movie comes out those same "flopped" books the graphic novel/trades do slightly better to very well in sales. You are fine with Ms Marvel flopping because you can use her other formats and attract that audience. I am not saying they can any character make them successful yes you do need a level of popularity but they are other factors involved in decisions and it is not just comic sales.


    If you put Hickman and Pepe larraz on Cyclops it will sell, If you put R.B Silva and Al Ewing on Cyclops it will sell. You put Morrison and Dauterman and Cyclops it will sell. And some point the market is trained to believe Cyclops a character that already has popularity is capable of good stories. You guys can disagree but they literally did it with Captain Marvel

    Attachment 104880

    And they did not even have to put the type of talent I am talking about, They just kept relaunching and kept the book around until it found its audience.They are about a select group of about 5 to 10 X-men characters who could keep a solo book in the range of what is the norm of the market if Marvel cared to cultivate them. Meaning they can do what Iron Man, Black Panther, Hulk, Thor, Aquaman, Green Arrow can do which is fall to cancelation numbers with a bad creative team and keep steady book somewhere in the top 100 books with a good creative team. Wolverine is an anomaly comparing any character to him is wrong he is a top 5 comic character one of few characters capable of carrying multiple books on the market.

    Stuff like Ironman, Black Panther, Hulk, or Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, Blade, Punisher is better comparisons. And Cable, X-23, Gambit fall into that latter category of characters. Ironically we don't consider Deadpool an X-character even though that were book started from X-books and is probably one of the more successful solo characters in the modern era. I don't think they are a lot of them but they are a group of X-characters who could perform within the norms of what solo books do today.
    I'll get the Captain Marvel stuff out of the way first. I know you got that stuff from the ComicsPerch vid. The series got relaunched constantly due to the falling numbers. KSD dropped below 20k and she never had boosts in sales like Reed did. Post SW and CW2 were horrid with the average being so high due to the #0, #1 and Legacy No. collectors. It took Kelly Thompson getting good word of mouth and that high #1 sales for her average to be that good.

    The only way for other X-Men characters to get solos that don't get cancelled like other solo heroes is for their merchandise and other non-comic book ventures to do well since that won't affect the diminishing returns element I brought up. Danny Rand isn't promoted outside his Netflix crap so no point keeping a book with him around for years if it barely sells past 10k.
    "Cable was right!"

  8. #128
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Yes, that's my argument too, more or less. If someone says x character don't sell, I can acept, but saying they don't work on a creative level is nonsense, imo.
    Before Sina Grace came along, Iceman already proved that he can work outside the X-Men.
    "Cable was right!"

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    This thread just proves any new mutant character with a solo would be dead on arrival if they don't align with the X-Men or an X-team. A superhuman without the X-Men is just an Avenger since they accept everyone.

  10. #130
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    I don’t think anyone is saying they shouldn’t be aligned with the X-men or an X-team, rather that they could also have adventures outside of the X-men/X-teams. For example, Cable has a long history with Nimrod (and Bastion too, who was basically a merger of Nimrod with Master Mold as a result of the Siege Perilous)...

    https://www.cbr.com/x-force-cable-took-down-nimrod/

    With Apocalypse (his former nemesis) out of the picture (and Cable having prevented his ascension and therefore his mission in this era years ago), I could see a Cable relaunch wherein the main hook is this: The adult version of Cable returns and is secretly (under orders from Moira, who he also has a long history with) trying to sabotage A.I. around the world in an attempt to prevent Nimrod from ever coming online and becoming self-aware. This takes him on all sorts of solo missions and puts him in all sorts of situations trying to stop any A.I. from coming online. There will be other characters who guess star and show up, both X-men characters and broader Marvel Universe characters. And, of course, there will be other side missions that pop up as well. Along the way he encounters new villains, beefing up his rogues gallery, and at some point Nimrod itself takes notice of his activities from a future timeline and starts sending versions of itself back in an attempt to stop him (he actually fought a Nimrod briefly in the beginning of the arc of his last solo book penned by Zac Thompson and Lonnie Nadler).

    Something like this could re-establish Cable as a major force in the Marvel U, as it would inevitably bring him into conflict with world governments and other characters/heroes of the Marvel U. It would provide the opportunity to create some new rogues for him, and I think it could sell with a great creative team.

    I’m sure Cyclops fans could come up with a similar hook for him, Storm fans could do the same for her, etc.

  11. #131
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    When a character is created as part of a team it is much harder for them to attain solo success. Characters like Cable, Gambit, and Wolverine came into the team as older (age wise) characters who you can believe have some history and mystery to them while most of the other X-Men came in young so its not like they have much of an unknow past to build on. Yes Gambit was created to be part of the team, but just by his introduction you could tell he had an interesting life before that. Same with Wolverine and Cable. It becomes even harder the longer they are around with the same team which is why every solo series starring long time team members has failed. Some characters can have success in other team books like Beast in the Avengers and latter with Iceman and Angel in the Defenders, but none are really strong enough to carry a solo.

  12. #132
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    When a character is created as part of a team it is much harder for them to attain solo success. Characters like Cable, Gambit, and Wolverine came into the team as older (age wise) characters who you can believe have some history and mystery to them while most of the other X-Men came in young so its not like they have much of an unknow past to build on. Yes Gambit was created to be part of the team, but just by his introduction you could tell he had an interesting life before that. Same with Wolverine and Cable. It becomes even harder the longer they are around with the same team which is why every solo series starring long time team members has failed. Some characters can have success in other team books like Beast in the Avengers and latter with Iceman and Angel in the Defenders, but none are really strong enough to carry a solo.
    This is a great point.

  13. #133
    Extraordinary Member Purplevit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    When a character is created as part of a team it is much harder for them to attain solo success. Characters like Cable, Gambit, and Wolverine came into the team as older (age wise) characters who you can believe have some history and mystery to them while most of the other X-Men came in young so its not like they have much of an unknow past to build on. Yes Gambit was created to be part of the team, but just by his introduction you could tell he had an interesting life before that. Same with Wolverine and Cable. It becomes even harder the longer they are around with the same team which is why every solo series starring long time team members has failed. Some characters can have success in other team books like Beast in the Avengers and latter with Iceman and Angel in the Defenders, but none are really strong enough to carry a solo.
    Good and logical explanation.

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