Post-Death Metal consequences

[jaygon]

I also like that John’s has previously played around with the idea that there may be a separate/surviving version of Earth-Two existing outside the current universe/multiverse/metaverse.

1. In IC 5, the resurrected pre-Crisis Earth-Two of Alexander Luthor’s interim multiverse is identified as being devoid of life, having an artificial-like atmosphere and specifically stated to be an anomaly in contrast to the other resurrected worlds.

2. Bart Allen spends a number of years, during this time, on an alternate earth which he states has a Jay Garrick.

3. The original Earth-2 of the ‘52’ (depicted in the final issue of ‘52’ and one issue of Justice Society of America) was NOT the Earth-2 which was introduced in subsequent JSA issues ; the latter being a world ‘almost’ visually identical to the original Earth-Two and (from the perspective of its inhabitants) the only world to have survived the original CRISIS. It would be neat if this world, which was home to Justice Society Infinity, was the archived world of the pre-Crisis Earth-Two and not the Earth-2 of ‘52’ which had been originally depicted differently and which may have never actually been depicted beyond those few panels.

[Dataweaver]

Regarding the MetaVerse :

I understand the basic premise, I’m just unsure about some of the finer details.

The birth of the Speed Force caused Superman’s timeline to be ‘pushed forward’ and reality split in two. The ‘original’ universe, home to the JSA and which had a now-different version of Superman was ‘archived’, birthing Earth-Two and the then-main timeline, with Superman ‘pushed forward’ in time, becomes the central timeline : Earth-One.

I understand this concept up until the point that it is stated that this birthed the Multiverse.

How did Earth-Three and all of the other earth of the pre-Crisis multiverse come about (from the perspective of the MetaVerse?) Pre-Crisis Earth-Six didn’t even have a Superman, to bring about a divide in the manner described above.

Or is it that the Earth-Two which was created when Barry discovered the Speed Force is a ‘different’ Earth-Two to the pre-Crisis Earth-Two and was archived outside of the pre-Crisis Multiverse?

Earth-1985 is said to have formed at the end of CRISIS which would give the impression that the ‘archived’ worlds of the MetaVerse are ‘outside’ of all the DC local multiverses pre-Crisis or otherwise.

So, did Barry’s discovery of the Speed Force create an inaccessible archived copy of the original Golden Age world IN ADDITION to the pre-crisis multiverse which ALSO had a similar Golden Age world called Earth-Two?

Here's how I view it: when the pre-Speed Force Earth became Earth 1, it spawned Earth 2. But its own history also changed. Johns mentioned Superman debuting in 1957 instead of 1938; but that wasn't the only change. Another important change was that the Guardians of the Universe existed in the history of this new Earth One. They had not existed in the history of the original Earth. And in the history of this new Earth One, Krona looked back at the Dawn of Time. And that gave birth to the Infinite Earths. So the creation of the Speed Force did lead to the birth of the Multiverse; but it was one step removed from the immediate cause.

Is the Earth 2 that the Metaverse generated separate from the Earth 2 of the Infinite Earths? Maybe. There are suggestions in the TPB version of Infinite Crisis that the Earth 2 that was summoned during that event wasn't the original Earth 2. A similar suggestion was made in the JSA Annual where PG visited the Earth 2 of the Orrery of Worlds, only for it to be revealed that it wasn't the Earth 2 that she came from.

My own speculation is that Limbo (that Grant Morrison invention that houses forgotten heroes) isn't just a barren landscape; it's a whole level of reality all its own, much like the Multiverse and the Dark Multiverse are distinct but related layers of reality. And Limbo is big enough to house while Multiverses. My view of it is that the “dead timelines” that were featured in Convergence are in fact “archived Earths” such as Doomsday Clock's Earth-2, Earth-1985, and so on. As such, Convergence gave us a glimpse of the Earth 2 that the Metaverse created, as well as Earth 1985 and several others, such as one that got archived by Zero Hour and another that got archived by Flashpoint.

[Restingvoice]

Here's how I view it: when the pre-Speed Force Earth became Earth 1, it spawned Earth 2. But its own history also changed. Johns mentioned Superman debuting in 1957 instead of 1938; but that wasn't the only change. Another important change was that the Guardians of the Universe existed in the history of this new Earth One. They had not existed in the history of the original Earth. And in the history of this new Earth One, Krona looked back at the Dawn of Time. And that gave birth to the Infinite Earths. So the creation of the Speed Force did lead to the birth of the Multiverse; but it was one step removed from the immediate cause.

Is the Earth 2 that the Metaverse generated separate from the Earth 2 of the Infinite Earths? Maybe. There are suggestions in the TPB version of Infinite Crisis that the Earth 2 that was summoned during that event wasn't the original Earth 2. A similar suggestion was made in the JSA Annual where PG visited the Earth 2 of the Orrery of Worlds, only for it to be revealed that it wasn't the Earth 2 that she came from.

Yea this is what I meant when I said the one that is archived isn't Earth 2 as the Silver Age know it, but the story from Golden Age when it's still the only earth in existence

because once they became a Multiverse, the state and lore already changed from the previous continuity. The larger context makes Silver Age Earth 2 and The Golden Age Only Earth are not the same thing anymore

[jaygon]

The issue is that when ‘Earth Two’ is shown alongside ‘Earth 1985’ in DDC 12, Huntress is present, indicating the archived earth continued its story much in the same way as ‘Silver Age Earth-Two’, if indeed they are even separate worlds.


I like to think, and agree with the above comments that they are separate earths.


The metaverse archived the original Golden Age earth. It’s still out there. It has not been seen since 1961. It has always existed ‘outside’ the universe/multiverse/accessible reality. This makes sense as the whole point in archiving it is to protect/preserve it.

The Metaverse circa. 1961 birthed a multiverse. This multiverse had a parallel world with an ‘almost’ identical history to the Golden Age world and which continued its story up until 1985, birthing Huntress etc.

Shortly before Earth 1,2,4,5 + X merged in CRISIS, the metaverse archived Earth One + Earth Two, creating Earth-1985 and Earth-2. These are the panels depicted in DDC 12, the latter featuring Huntress. Earth-1985 + Earth - 2 are archived outside the post-Crisis universe and alongside the archived Golden Age earth (and all other archived earths) and have remained inaccessible ever since.

[Dataweaver]

But that doesn't match the narrative of Doomsday Clock. Doomsday Clock specifically attributed the creation of the Earth 2 that it depicted to the creation of the Speed Force.

The other thing to remember is that all that the Infinite Crisis and JSA Annual reveals gave us is that the Earth Two of the Orrery of Worlds is not the Earth Two of the Infinite Earths. It does not say anything about the Earth Two of the infinite Earths not being the original Earth Two.

Finally, it's worth noting that the concept of Limbo that Morrison came up with was all about archiving characters who were not currently in publication. I agree that the archived Earths are not in the Multiverse, but they're a perfect fit for Limbo. It's just that they are entire Earths being archived, rather than individual heroes.

[Restingvoice]

The issue is that when ‘Earth Two’ is shown alongside ‘Earth 1985’ in DDC 12, Huntress is present, indicating the archived earth continued its story much in the same way as ‘Silver Age Earth-Two’, if indeed they are even separate worlds.

This page right?

main-qimg-b65268373a2d9dfae050adf4ff0db9ef.jpg

The sentence is "Superman's timeline shift forward and reality divides for the first time, creating the Multiverse. Earth-2 is born."

He's not talking about the archived earth, but the Earth-2 that is born alongside the Multiverse. The new one.

Well, since it's not mentioned, it's possible that old Golden Age was never archived, but transformed alongside the creation of Multiverse into the Earth-2 of the first Multiverse.

Since the purpose of the Metaverse is to preserve an interation of Superman, then if Earth-2 exist, then he's already preserved and there's no need for an archived Golden Age.

Now after that, talking about the Crisis, Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985, that's the archiving, because the new Earth-1 is Post Crisis and so the old Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985.

During this time Earth-2 would be archived alongside the Silver Age Multiverse... or maybe just destroyed in the Crisis, since Crisis did happen as part of the story. The Superman of Earth-2 is preserved not in archived Earth-2 but in that pocket dimension with Lois, Alexander and Superboy Prime

I don't know. Do you count in preservation if you're no longer the main Superman?

[jaygon]

Agreed.

It would appear from the text that he states that a ‘splitting of reality’ resulted in a parallel world (Earth-Two) rather than an archiving or rather that the parallel world ‘was the archive’ albeit housed with the structure of the new pre-Crisis Multiverse. After the CRISIS, Earth-1985 is archived ‘elsewhere’. This is because there was no multiverse at that time.

The plot hole rests on the fact that the pre-crisis multiverse had far more earths that Earth-One and Earth-Two.

[jaygon]

The sentence is "Superman's timeline shift forward and reality divides for the first time, creating the Multiverse. Earth-2 is born."

I suppose it could mean that reality divides for the first times, creating the infinite multiverse, which includes Earth-2.

[Restingvoice]

The sentence is "Superman's timeline shift forward and reality divides for the first time, creating the Multiverse. Earth-2 is born."

I suppose it could mean that reality divides for the first times, creating the infinite multiverse, which includes Earth-2.

Yes. Pretty much it.

[Dataweaver]

Since the purpose of the Metaverse is to preserve an interation of Superman, then if Earth-2 exist, then he's already preserved and there's no need for an archived Golden Age.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of the Metaverse isn't just to preserve an iteration of Superman; it's to preserve the stories that no longer fit the new timeline. That includes preserving every iteration of Superman, but it isn't limited to that.

Now after that, talking about the Crisis, Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985, that's the archiving, because the new Earth-1 is Post Crisis and so the old Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985.

It's not the new Earth 1; it's the post-Crisis Earth. Like the Golden Age Earth, there was no (accessible) Multiverse at the time, so there was no need to name the new Earth.

During this time Earth-2 would be archived alongside the Silver Age Multiverse... or maybe just destroyed in the Crisis, since Crisis did happen as part of the story. The Superman of Earth-2 is preserved not in archived Earth-2 but in that pocket dimension with Lois, Alexander and Superboy Prime

I would say that that wasn't a pocket dimension; it was the Sixth Dimension — or at least in the Sixth Dimension. And “archived” and “destroyed” aren't mutually exclusive terms.

[jaygon]

The plot hole is that :

Only two earths are shown in the picture. It is specifically stated thereafter that Earth-2 is born. This is implied to be a consequence of the metaverse seeking to preserve that era of Superman (the Golden Age).

Given what John’s is stating about the metaverse seeking to preserve the previous continuity, this panel would make perfect sense, if reality had merely divided in two. But it doesn’t. A whole multiverse is implied to have been born.

This doesn’t marry with the idea (as it is later stated) that the metaverse is specifically copying/archiving/preserving every era of Superman/past continuities but presents the idea that Earth-2 is simply a bi-product of the creation of a wider multiverse, many worlds of which may not even have a version of Superman.

[Dataweaver]

As I said, the birth of the Multiverse came from the rewriting of the main Earth's timeline to include the Guardians of the Universe, and more specifically Krona. The creation of Earth 2 came from the Metaversal function to preserve what would otherwise be lost, and merely added Earth 2 to the Infinite Earths that the retcon of the main Earth's history created.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I can do without the death, but being the softy I am, they must keep Unmentionables #13, the marriage of Underpants Man and Panelope T. Hosiery. Such a sweet issue. I wept three times.

Oh please! Enough with the Underpants/Hosiery shipping! Every true Underpants Man fan knows that his true love will always be Lingerie Lass! The whole attempt to shoehorn in Hosiery was a transparent attempt by DC to placate Reddit and sidestep the legal wrangling over the copyright of Lingerie Lass's Thong Song!

Think before you type, Robanker. Sheesh.

[Robanker]

Oh please! Enough with the Underpants/Hosiery shipping! Every true Underpants Man fan knows that his true love will always be Lingerie Lass! The whole attempt to shoehorn in Hosiery was a transparent attempt by DC to placate Reddit and sidestep the legal wrangling over the copyright of Lingerie Lass's Thong Song!

Think before you type, Robanker. Sheesh.

Ah, Lingerie Lass-- The dame of drawers herself; the seductress of smallcloth. I turned in my UnderLass shipping badge after Lingerie Lass Annual #1 where she betrayed Underpants Man to Baron von Boxerbriefs and indirectly caused the death of Jockey the Underdog. I know it was an editorial hit by DC over the legal battle you mentioned (and Panelope T. Hosiery conveniently appeared two months afterward), but dammit I loved Jockey.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Ah, Lingerie Lass-- The dame of drawers herself; the seductress of smallcloth. I turned in my UnderLass shipping badge after Lingerie Lass Annual #1 where she betrayed Underpants Man to Baron von Boxerbriefs and indirectly caused the death of Jockey the Underdog. I know it was an editorial hit by DC over the legal battle you mentioned (and Panelope T. Hosiery conveniently appeared two months afterward), but dammit I loved Jockey.

They retconned Lingerie Lass Annual #1 a decade ago!! That was, quite explicitly, shown to be due to the manipulations of Crotchrash, who'd used the Cosmic Crabs to infect Lingerie Lass, so NONE of her actions are canon.

I'm done with this conversation until you start taking this more seriously.