Post-Death Metal consequences

[Dataweaver]

So after reading DM#7, I find myself wondering what this means going forward.

First, the “new timeline” that they were planning appears to have been scrapped, in favor of of a setup where everyone remembers everything. As I interpret it, this is in effect an evolution of the Metaverse from Doomsday Clock: Superman first appeared in 1939, then the timeline was asked in 1957 and several times since then; and after Diana dipped her Lasso of Truth into the Cosmic Forge, everyone in the current iteration of the Metaverse regained memories from all of the prior iterations of the Metaverse.
I'm assuming that this extension of memories only pertains to the primary Earth of the DCU: for instance, Superman didn't gain the memories of President Superman, because President Superman is not and never was from the Metaverse. Spinoff Earths may have acquired a similar unlocking of memories from previous iterations, if “previous iterations” are a thing outside of the Metaverse — which may well be the case, considering Convergence. But it's just as possible that each alternate world is its own thing, with just a single history. Again dipping into Doomsday Clock, you have the archival Earths (Earth 2, Earth 1985, Earth 52, and so on) which were spun off of the Metaverse when its timeline underwent overhauls; and even if Convergence is true and there are new iterations of each, is possible that the “archival Earth” thing happened when those worlds for updated to newer iterations.

That said, I think it would be simpler to restrict the “everyone remembers everything” effect to the focal world of DC Comics.

Second: what's that going to do to people? I have a feeling that therapists are going to be in high demand in the immediate future, as people struggle to come to terms with multiple sets of conflicting memories. And does that mean that secrets potentially revealed and then concealed are now out in the open again? E.g., everyone now remembers that Nightwing is Dick Grayson. Or is that memory somehow immune to the Lasso?

Third, the Two Central Worlds, neither of which is Earth 0. One is called the Elseworld, and is described as the antithesis of the other. Nothing is known about the other. Speculation: the Elseworld is the new reality's version of the Cosmic Forge: it's kind of like the Metaverse in that it's spawning other worlds in the Multiverse; but it's spawning them all the time and in much more radical ways.

As for the other one, it may well be that I'm wrong about Earth-0 being the Metaverse. Instead, Earth-0 may well be merely the latest Earth to be spun off of the Metaverse, with DM's resolution being the triggering event, and the actual Metaverse may be the other central world. The planned “new timeline” may actually still be a thing in this new reality, as the Metaverse's newest iteration. But unlike earlier iterations, it's not the focus of DC Comics.

Or perhaps the other central Earth was previously Earth-33, a.k.a., Earth Prime, a.k.a. us. Which means that it will never be visited by anyone in the comics, except through fourth-wall schticks like what Animal Man did back in the 90s. (The “new” Earth-33, by contrast, would be a reconstituted pre-Crisis Earth Prime, where Superboy Prime found himself at the end of the DM tie-in that he featured in.)

Thoughts?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Snyder confirmed that the heroes only remember their own past lives, not the past lives of their counterparts from alternate Earths, so I think you're right about it only being the main Earth that resides in the Metaverse, which has gone by many names at this point. Prior to 1956, it was simply Superman's Earth, then it became Earth-1, then New Earth, then Earth-0, then Earth-Prime, now it appears to be in a New Genesis/Apokolips-esque relationship with the Elseworlds Earth, twin worlds each representing the more fluid nature of continuity, with the main DCU Earth home to the broad strokes of DC history whereas its counterpart is home to ever-shifting "anything goes" alternate history stories.

[Dataweaver]

you're correct right up to that last point. The final issue of Death Metal specifically said that Earth zero is no longer the center of the multiverse. The twin centers are two different worlds, one being the elseworld and the other being its opposite.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

you're correct right up to that last point. The final issue of Death Metal specifically said that Earth zero is no longer the center of the multiverse. The twin centers are two different worlds, one being the elseworld and the other being its opposite.

I thought that the twin worlds were the DCU Earth and Elseworlds. The stuff about Earth-0 not being the center was a reference to it now sharing it with the Elseworld, wasn't it?

EDIT: You're right. That's an interesting new wrinkle.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah. That's why I was speculating as to what the other center Earth might be.

[Primal Slayer]

The consequences? DC continuity is even more confusing then it was in the past. So Diana remembers her clay birth and her being Zeus's kid? Cassie remembers being Zeus's daughter and now some nobody of a gods daughter? How does one deal with that? (I know they will deal with it by not dealing with it but still)

[Dataweaver]

Like I said: therapy will be in high demand. About the only positive I see on that front is that the DCU was trimmed back to “before the Batman Who Laughs attacked”, which I take to mean before the first Dark Nights event. Does that roll-back include nobody remembering what happened during that timeframe? Or do they remember living in a hellscape, too? Because of they do, it's not just conflicting sets of memories that people will need to cope with; it's genuine trauma. Imagine the people who were restored to life by it: they possibly have to cope with remembering the experience of dying.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I can see a handful of stories that could explore the mental confusion of having multiple memories of past lives, but, I doubt most creators will use this new status quo for that because it would be needlessly convoluted. Instead, they'll simply use this more hands-off approach towards continuity to tell the stories they want to tell without having to worry if it contradicts any story published over the last 80+ years.

Like I've said before, the only characters this will really affect in any substantial way are Superman and Wonder Woman and both those characters' lives are cosmic and magical enough that both could shrug this off as yet another crazy aspect of their extraordinary lives. This won't prevent creators from being specific about their backstories because every story doesn't have to reference the idea that they remember all of their previous lives.

If someone wants to do a story set during Clark's youth, they can do so with more freedom than they've ever had before because they don't need to worry about if it fits within the parameters of whatever Seigel, Weisenger, Byrne, Waid, Johns, Morrison, or whomever else established happened during their runs. Furthermore, any elements from those prior incarnations can now be used freely without editorial stepping in to nix it because it contradicts whatever the current editorial regime has decided is canon this week.

This doesn't guarantee good comics, but it certainly removes one of the barriers that many creators have faced when trying to craft interesting stories with these old characters.

[Dataweaver]

In the case of Wonder Woman, we have an entirely different issue restricting what kinds of stories we can tell about her — for now, at least: she's MIA. If you want to tell stories about her past, you still can. I'd even be okay with the “it all happened!” timeline including the four-generation timeline that was on the docket before everything went crazy last year, and telling stories about a Wonder Woman who was the first superhero and who helped found the Justice Society (as opposed to joining a bit later as their secretary). But contemporary stories of Wonder Woman? They're on hold until her return.

[Aahz]

Snyder confirmed that the heroes only remember their own past lives, not the past lives of their counterparts from alternate Earths, so I think you're right about it only being the main Earth that resides in the Metaverse, which has gone by many names at this point.

For Characters like Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman that existed on Earth 1 and Earth 2 does that include bot Earths or just Earth 1, since Earth 2 was just an alternate Earth?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

For Characters like Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman that existed on Earth 1 and Earth 2 does that include bot Earths or just Earth 1, since Earth 2 was just an alternate Earth?

If we take Doomsday Clock's approach, then, yes, once the Metaverse creates a "back-up" of each of Superman's Earths, that would become an alternate Earth of the Multiverse. So, nobody would have any of the memories of what occurred on Earth-1985 or the Post-Infinite Crisis Earth-2

However, the Pre-Crisis Earth-2 is a special case because its history, along with Earth-4, was essentially merged with Earth-1 to form New Earth, so I think a solid case could be made that the memories of the Earth-2 Superman, Batman, & Wonder Woman would also be in play. In actual practice, I'm not sure what would be gained though in most cases.

Superman & Power Girl's relationship could change a tad, but that would rob her character of the pathos of losing her surrogate father and the last connection to her dead universe.

Batman is already married to Catwoman, so knowing that they were married before doesn't really change that dynamic. I don't think anyone is going to want to touch Earth-2 Dick Grayson's memories, given his creepy flirtations with Huntress, who was decades younger than him.

As for Wonder Woman, her 1940s history with the JSA is already back, but revised so that its less dated and sexist. They could touch on her relationship with Fury, I suppose, but that's opening up another can of worms in regards to the whole Sandman stuff. If someone has a good story to tell with Wonder Woman having a daughter, they could certainly do so, but I doubt it'll get addressed any time soon.

The door is open to creators using this old stuff to tell new stories, but that doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is going to be in a rush to do so.

[Dataweaver]

People would remember the “Superman's Earth” (1939-1957), “Earth 1” (1957-1985), “post-Crisis Earth” (1985-2005), “New Earth” (2005-2011), and “Prime Earth” (2011-2020), more or less. (There are actually a few more break points than that; but that's a discussion for another thread.) Earth 2 is not a special case: people recall the JSA existing back in the 40s with Superman and Batman as reserve members, from the original Golden Age continuity; but no other “primary Earth” continuity since then has had either of them as a member of the JSA in any capacity so the only memories anyone would have of Superman or Batman in the JSA would come from that initially iteration of the DCU. Everything that developed on Earth 2 in the 60s, 70s, and 80s (right up to CoIE) is the domain of a separate Earth, unless it's something that explicitly got folded into the main Earth's post-Crisis history. Which, to be fair, a lot of it did, once DC started revitalizing the JSA in the 90s. Between Robinson's Starman and Johns' JSA, a boatload of post-Golden Age JSA history got folded in. But nothing about Superman or Batman in the JSA was ever among that material that got incorporated into the main Earth's history. So no; none of the Earth 2 material pertaining to Superman or Batman would be remembered by their Metaverse counterparts. Not Clark becoming the chief editor of the Daily Star, nor Bruce and Selling marrying and having a daughter. Nor, for that matter, Diana marrying Steve Trevor and having a daughter with him. That's all Earth 2 stuff that never got folded into the primary Earth.

The interesting thing about Power Girl in particular is that she got folded into the post-Crisis history as an Atlantean, and then got her “refugee from Earth 2” status restored by Infinite Crisis; but even then, she kept her post-Crisis memories right up until the Flashpoint reboot. She remembers being Superman's cousin; but she specifically remembers another Earth's Superman being her cousin. She is still a refugee from another world.

But in this new “it all happened” reality, while people don't recall Earth 2's history as something they lived through themselves, they do remember Earth 2's history as something they encountered. “The Flash of Two Worlds” is something that people recall having happened.

[Aahz]

Batman is already married to Catwoman, so knowing that they were married before doesn't really change that dynamic. I don't think anyone is going to want to touch Earth-2 Dick Grayson's memories, given his creepy flirtations with Huntress, who was decades younger than him.

Question would be if they have the memories of their older selfs or only up to the point where Earth 2 stopped being the main Earth. In the second case there wouldn't be much of a problem.

Interesting case would be Jason Todd, did he got the memories of the pre crisis Version?

Btw. are there appart from Jason the usual suspects (Donny Troy, Supergirl/Powergirl and the Hawks) any bigger characters were Earth 1 or Earth 2 memories would be significantly different from the New 52/Post Crisis mix we had in Rebirth?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The broad strokes of most characters didn’t really change all that much since, whenever huge changes were attempted, they largely failed and the character quickly reverted to their classic incarnation.

Superman and Wonder Woman are the only two whose reboots stuck around for extended periods.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

People would remember the “Superman's Earth” (1939-1957), “Earth 1” (1957-1985), “post-Crisis Earth” (1985-2005), “New Earth” (2005-2011), and “Prime Earth” (2011-2020), more or less. (There are actually a few more break points than that; but that's a discussion for another thread.) Earth 2 is not a special case: people recall the JSA existing back in the 40s with Superman and Batman as reserve members, from the original Golden Age continuity; but no other “primary Earth” continuity since then has had either of them as a member of the JSA in any capacity so the only memories anyone would have of Superman or Batman in the JSA would come from that initially iteration of the DCU. Everything that developed on Earth 2 in the 60s, 70s, and 80s (right up to CoIE) is the domain of a separate Earth, unless it's something that explicitly got folded into the main Earth's post-Crisis history. Which, to be fair, a lot of it did, once DC started revitalizing the JSA in the 90s. Between Robinson's Starman and Johns' JSA, a boatload of post-Golden Age JSA history got folded in. But nothing about Superman or Batman in the JSA was ever among that material that got incorporated into the main Earth's history. So no; none of the Earth 2 material pertaining to Superman or Batman would be remembered by their Metaverse counterparts. Not Clark becoming the chief editor of the Daily Star, nor Bruce and Selling marrying and having a daughter. Nor, for that matter, Diana marrying Steve Trevor and having a daughter with him. That's all Earth 2 stuff that never got folded into the primary Earth.

The interesting thing about Power Girl in particular is that she got folded into the post-Crisis history as an Atlantean, and then got her “refugee from Earth 2” status restored by Infinite Crisis; but even then, she kept her post-Crisis memories right up until the Flashpoint reboot. She remembers being Superman's cousin; but she specifically remembers another Earth's Superman being her cousin. She is still a refugee from another world.

But in this new “it all happened” reality, while people don't recall Earth 2's history as something they lived through themselves, they do remember Earth 2's history as something they encountered. “The Flash of Two Worlds” is something that people recall having happened.

I am not sure how they are going to approach the Pre-Crisis Earth-2 stuff. Post Infinite Crisis, the JSA remembered their Superman and Batman again, so, even if those two don’t remember, the JSA certainly would.

However, like I said, there's no real creative upside to having the Trinity remember their Earth-2 lives, so I seriously doubt it will ever come up unless someone has a great story about it.