Amazing Spider-Man (1963) #8 (spiderman crashes the human torch's party)

[FFJamie94]

Bit of an old thread I stumbled into, but there's a major elephant in this room that seems to have escaped people here, lol:

[Bold parts added by me for emphasis]





Guys, I don't know how to break this to y'all, but the Fantastic Four backup story in ASM#08 was done by...Stan Lee and JACK KIRBY.


All you guys had to do was see the credits of the comic:

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Attachment 115718

The backup story of ASM#08 is the first time a creator other than Steve Ditko worked on a Spider-Man story (granted its Jack Kirby Spider-Man's unacknowledged and uncredited co-creator). And Kirby of course plotted this story out by himself.

So speculation like this about Ditko and objectivism and all, it's fine I guess but you might better save it for a story that Ditko actually worked on, just saying.

I knew this was done by Kirby, I was just saying those first 10 issues are amazing are a bit weird when compared to the rest of the run. If this story was published 10 issues after it did, then Kirby would have probably gone in a different direction.

[Huntsman Spider]

I mean, the stories used the Marvel method where the artist made up the plot and Stan Lee wrote the dialogue, and this other story was written by Jack Kirby, so yeah, Peter being a bigger ******* than he usually was is Kirby's fault lol.



JJ was funding domestic terrorism with the bullshit he pulled with Scorpion and Spider-Slayer, not to mention years and years of slander, he has no moral high ground here.



As much as Johnny is an ******* at times, Spidey crashed the party 'cause he was jealous and decided to stay despite everyone there telling him to **** off, Spidey was in the wrong and there's no way around it lol.

Valid point as well, though Jameson did end up having to address the greater negative impact of years of slandering Spider-Man in the "Lifetime Achievement" arc of Spencer's ASM, in which he and Spider-Man were targeted by the son of Frederick Foswell, who put together an elaborate trap to force or convince Jameson to kill Spider-Man and "prove" that he hadn't betrayed everything he once stood for, as he'd believed for years that his deceased father (who really was the Big Man of Crime) was unfairly set up by Spider-Man, due in large part to Jameson's own convincing.

[exile001]

I've always missed Peter having a little bite, as he did in the original era. While he definitely comes across as more stable now (he WAS a teenager back then), I do get a little bugged seeming him be a total pushover or "life's punching bag" (through a lot of BND, for example).

[Vegeta]

I've always missed Peter having a little bite, as he did in the original era. While he definitely comes across as more stable now (he WAS a teenager back then), I do get a little bugged seeming him be a total pushover or "life's punching bag" (through a lot of BND, for example).

I agree with you, I rather liked the early Spidey with a chip on his shoulder. That he was always ready to throw hands with other heroes at the smallest perceived slight (and had the raw strength and abilities to back it up.) was great. This less than perfect behavior also keeps him closer to his "loner" hero status. (This was NOT a Spider-man was was going to fanboying over Tony Stark, if anything he would be jealously attempting to make Iron Man look like a fool!)

Spidey was kind of the "Wolverine " of the 60's, a loose cannon used to boost other comic book sales with the occasional guest appearance. (Heck, they even threw him on the cover of Daredevil #1, despite not even being IN the issue!)

[David Walton]

I've always missed Peter having a little bite, as he did in the original era. While he definitely comes across as more stable now (he WAS a teenager back then), I do get a little bugged seeming him be a total pushover or "life's punching bag" (through a lot of BND, for example).

I agree with you, I rather liked the early Spidey with a chip on his shoulder. That he was always ready to throw hands with other heroes at the smallest perceived slight (and had the raw strength and abilities to back it up.) was great. This less than perfect behavior also keeps him closer to his "loner" hero status. (This was NOT a Spider-man was was going to fanboying over Tony Stark, if anything he would be jealously attempting to make Iron Man look like a fool!)

Spidey was kind of the "Wolverine " of the 60's, a loose cannon used to boost other comic book sales with the occasional guest appearance. (Heck, they even threw him on the cover of Daredevil #1, despite not even being IN the issue!)

Sometimes people forget that Peter has quite a temper, even after he matured over the years. He isn't as volatile as he was in his teens but he's still got a tendency to let things build up and then just unleash on whoever catches him at the wrong moment.

Personally I love the Lee/Kirby backup story from ASM 8, it's hilarious!

As far as Peter being a jerk, sure, but there's a few things worth considering. He's a teenager from a working class family who has been so thoroughly failed by the system that he has to work as a photographer just to keep up his elderly widowed aunt's check-to-check existence. On top of all this he's vilified by the press for risking his life for others.

And then there's Johnny Storm, a teen idol who drives fancy cars, throws lavish parties and wants for nothing. So yeah, that's going to get under Peter's skin. And Johnny is not exactly a model of human empathy at this point, constantly playing practical jokes on Ben Grimm and reminding him of his disfigurement.

So all things considered...I'm on Team Spidey here.

[Lukmendes]

I agree with you, I rather liked the early Spidey with a chip on his shoulder. That he was always ready to throw hands with other heroes at the smallest perceived slight (and had the raw strength and abilities to back it up.) was great. This less than perfect behavior also keeps him closer to his "loner" hero status. (This was NOT a Spider-man was was going to fanboying over Tony Stark, if anything he would be jealously attempting to make Iron Man look like a fool!)

Spidey was kind of the "Wolverine " of the 60's, a loose cannon used to boost other comic book sales with the occasional guest appearance. (Heck, they even threw him on the cover of Daredevil #1, despite not even being IN the issue!)

There was even a "Spider-Man shows up on the third issue" going on, which She-Hulk mentions directly:

And then there's Johnny Storm, a teen idol who drives fancy cars, throws lavish parties and wants for nothing. So yeah, that's going to get under Peter's skin. And Johnny is not exactly a model of human empathy at this point, constantly playing practical jokes on Ben Grimm and reminding him of his disfigurement.

So all things considered...I'm on Team Spidey here.

As much as Johnny is an ******* in human form at times, that's irrelevant in this situation, Johnny was having a party, Spidey decided to crash it because he has nothing better to do, when told to **** off he decided to stay, and then he decided to fight the rest of F4 just because.

Spidey had a temper when he was younger, but his anger was a response to someone else being an ******* to him, he's friendly when people aren't actively trying to piss him off (Shocking really), and that backup story in ASM#8 ignores all of that, he's an ******* just because lol.

[Pav]

I agree with you, I rather liked the early Spidey with a chip on his shoulder. That he was always ready to throw hands with other heroes at the smallest perceived slight (and had the raw strength and abilities to back it up.) was great. This less than perfect behavior also keeps him closer to his "loner" hero status. (This was NOT a Spider-man was was going to fanboying over Tony Stark, if anything he would be jealously attempting to make Iron Man look like a fool!)

Spidey was kind of the "Wolverine " of the 60's, a loose cannon used to boost other comic book sales with the occasional guest appearance. (Heck, they even threw him on the cover of Daredevil #1, despite not even being IN the issue!)

Sometimes people forget that Peter has quite a temper, even after he matured over the years. He isn't as volatile as he was in his teens but he's still got a tendency to let things build up and then just unleash on whoever catches him at the wrong moment.

Personally I love the Lee/Kirby backup story from ASM 8, it's hilarious!

As far as Peter being a jerk, sure, but there's a few things worth considering. He's a teenager from a working class family who has been so thoroughly failed by the system that he has to work as a photographer just to keep up his elderly widowed aunt's check-to-check existence. On top of all this he's vilified by the press for risking his life for others.

One idea I've longed dreamed of using if I ever get to write Spidey comics is bringing back Spidercide in order to explore Ditko!Spidey vs Romita!Spidey.

The basic idea is that Spidercide would essentially embrace the attitude of Peter in those original comics and try to take over as both Peter and Spidey.

-Pav, who doesn't want to say much more...

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Personally I love the Lee/Kirby backup story from ASM 8, it's hilarious!

Yeah, it's a comedy and it's kind of interesting that this might be how Spider-Man could have been had Kirby wrote the title. He is essentially Spider-Man's co-creator, and he was the guy who brought Spiderman to Marvel and developed the original concept after all. Kirby presenting Spider-Man as a teenage prankster harassing the FF is hilarious and maybe a bit of fear about Ditko's character upstaging the FF (which inevitably happened).

As far as Peter being a jerk, sure, but there's a few things worth considering. He's a teenager from a working class family who has been so thoroughly failed by the system that he has to work as a photographer just to keep up his elderly widowed aunt's check-to-check existence. On top of all this he's vilified by the press for risking his life for others.

And then there's Johnny Storm, a teen idol who drives fancy cars, throws lavish parties and wants for nothing. So yeah, that's going to get under Peter's skin. And Johnny is not exactly a model of human empathy at this point, constantly playing practical jokes on Ben Grimm and reminding him of his disfigurement.

So all things considered...I'm on Team Spidey here.

Yeah, class angst and resentment is probably a factor. This song probably represents how Spider-Man feels about the FF and Avengers.

[Huntsman Spider]

Those are all interesting (and good) points you bring up, though it's kind of funny that Spider-Man is still a loner to a degree, nowadays more because he refuses to let other people/heroes in on his personal struggles than because he's outright antagonized them in some way.

[David Walton]

As much as Johnny is an ******* in human form at times, that's irrelevant in this situation, Johnny was having a party, Spidey decided to crash it because he has nothing better to do, when told to **** off he decided to stay, and then he decided to fight the rest of F4 just because.

Like I said, Spidey's being a jerk, but the situation is constructed in such a way that even though he's wrong you can sympathize and root for him. If you don't read too much "reality" into the situation and just embrace the fun.

Spidey had a temper when he was younger, but his anger was a response to someone else being an ******* to him, he's friendly when people aren't actively trying to piss him off (Shocking really), and that backup story in ASM#8 ignores all of that, he's an ******* just because lol.

Spidey broke into the FF's headquarters and antagonized them because he wanted a job interview. In his head, he thought it was brilliant...but it was an ******* thing to do. So that's the precedent and it's set early on.

As for why he does stupid things like this, Thing says it best, "Because he's a goofball teenage showoff just like Johnny!"

One idea I've longed dreamed of using if I ever get to write Spidey comics is bringing back Spidercide in order to explore Ditko!Spidey vs Romita!Spidey.

The basic idea is that Spidercide would essentially embrace the attitude of Peter in those original comics and try to take over as both Peter and Spidey.

-Pav, who doesn't want to say much more...

WHAT IF SPIDER-MAN'S CLONE HAD LIVED? actually had the clone from ASM 149 as the Ditko version because of when the cell samples were taken.

Yeah, it's a comedy and it's kind of interesting that this might be how Spider-Man could have been had Kirby wrote the title. He is essentially Spider-Man's co-creator, and he was the guy who brought Spiderman to Marvel and developed the original concept after all. Kirby presenting Spider-Man as a teenage prankster harassing the FF is hilarious and maybe a bit of fear about Ditko's character upstaging the FF (which inevitably happened).

ASM 8 is also where you really see Stan letting his foot off the brake with regard to Spidey being a smartass. So a lot of Spidey's DNA is in that Lee/Kirby collaboration, though it wouldn't fully manifest until the Lee/Romita Sr. era.

Yeah, class angst and resentment is probably a factor. This song probably represents how Spider-Man feels about the FF and Avengers.

Indeed!

Of course the great thing is that Spidey and the FF reconcile their differences (mostly) and become like family.

Johnny is a decent kid, it's just his circumstances make him oblivious to what Peter is always going through. But Johnny would have no reason to know that until he was aware that Peter is behind the mask.

I definitely feel like Peter would be more antagonistic to the Avengers, at least in their post-2000 incarnations.

Those are all interesting (and good) points you bring up, though it's kind of funny that Spider-Man is still a loner to a degree, nowadays more because he refuses to let other people/heroes in on his personal struggles than because he's outright antagonized them in some way.

I think Peter should always be a loner even if he's able to work well with others as needed. It's a fundamental characteristic. His closest relationship (MJ) came about because she knew his secret and confronted him. Same with Daredevil, who figured it out on his own. He's not a guy who lets others in easily.

[Lukmendes]

Like I said, Spidey's being a jerk, but the situation is constructed in such a way that even though he's wrong you can sympathize and root for him.

I don't see how, to me he's being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk lol.

Spidey broke into the FF's headquarters and antagonized them because he wanted a job interview. In his head, he thought it was brilliant...but it was an ******* thing to do. So that's the precedent and it's set early on.

He was an ******* there, but he's ridiculously worse here, 'cause at least in ASM#1 he stopped fighting when Reed asked him to (The second time, but still), in ASM#8, when the other members from F4 show up, his butthurtness increases and he picks a fight with all of 'em...

He's being an unlikable ******* here, nor do I see the situation as funny, but I guess that's my point of view lol.

I definitely feel like Peter would be more antagonistic to the Avengers, at least in their post-2000 incarnations.

Post-2000 Avengers had made Civil War and AvX happen, so yeah, I can see that lol.

I think Peter should always be a loner even if he's able to work well with others as needed. It's a fundamental characteristic. His closest relationship (MJ) came about because she knew his secret and confronted him. Same with Daredevil, who figured it out on his own. He's not a guy who lets others in easily.

Specially considering there aren't a lot of times he willingly revealed his identity to someone, aunt May and MJ figured it out by themselves, he's kinda like Barry Allen in this lol.

Kinda 'cause he's not as bad as Barry, he did reveal it to Felicia for example, but that's definitely not a secret he'll tell unless he really, really trusts someone, which's fair.

[Huntsman Spider]

Like I said, Spidey's being a jerk, but the situation is constructed in such a way that even though he's wrong you can sympathize and root for him. If you don't read too much "reality" into the situation and just embrace the fun.



Spidey broke into the FF's headquarters and antagonized them because he wanted a job interview. In his head, he thought it was brilliant...but it was an ******* thing to do. So that's the precedent and it's set early on.

As for why he does stupid things like this, Thing says it best, "Because he's a goofball teenage showoff just like Johnny!"



WHAT IF SPIDER-MAN'S CLONE HAD LIVED? actually had the clone from ASM 149 as the Ditko version because of when the cell samples were taken.



ASM 8 is also where you really see Stan letting his foot off the brake with regard to Spidey being a smartass. So a lot of Spidey's DNA is in that Lee/Kirby collaboration, though it wouldn't fully manifest until the Lee/Romita Sr. era.



Indeed!

Of course the great thing is that Spidey and the FF reconcile their differences (mostly) and become like family.

Johnny is a decent kid, it's just his circumstances make him oblivious to what Peter is always going through. But Johnny would have no reason to know that until he was aware that Peter is behind the mask.

I definitely feel like Peter would be more antagonistic to the Avengers, at least in their post-2000 incarnations.



I think Peter should always be a loner even if he's able to work well with others as needed. It's a fundamental characteristic. His closest relationship (MJ) came about because she knew his secret and confronted him. Same with Daredevil, who figured it out on his own. He's not a guy who lets others in easily.

I don't see how, to me he's being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk lol.



He was an ******* there, but he's ridiculously worse here, 'cause at least in ASM#1 he stopped fighting when Reed asked him to (The second time, but still), in ASM#8, when the other members from F4 show up, his butthurtness increases and he picks a fight with all of 'em...

He's being an unlikable ******* here, nor do I see the situation as funny, but I guess that's my point of view lol.



Post-2000 Avengers had made Civil War and AvX happen, so yeah, I can see that lol.



Specially considering there aren't a lot of times he willingly revealed his identity to someone, aunt May and MJ figured it out by themselves, he's kinda like Barry Allen in this lol.

Kinda 'cause he's not as bad as Barry, he did reveal it to Felicia for example, but that's definitely not a secret he'll tell unless he really, really trusts someone, which's fair.

Considering Civil War's more personal consequences for Peter, even before One More Day and the deal with Mephisto, it would have been interesting, if not necessarily better, to see him more consciously (as opposed to unconsciously) distance himself from the Avengers, not wanting to get embroiled in their conflicts and end up with himself and his loved ones becoming collateral damage of said conflicts. The sentiment could even be somewhat similar to Green Arrow's at the beginning of Justice League Unlimited, where he declared his refusal to join the expanded Justice League because, "I fight for the little guy, and a big organization like this? You [tend to] forget all about him."

[Lukmendes]

Considering Civil War's more personal consequences for Peter, even before One More Day and the deal with Mephisto, it would have been interesting, if not necessarily better, to see him more consciously (as opposed to unconsciously) distance himself from the Avengers, not wanting to get embroiled in their conflicts and end up with himself and his loved ones becoming collateral damage of said conflicts. The sentiment could even be somewhat similar to Green Arrow's at the beginning of Justice League Unlimited, where he declared his refusal to join the expanded Justice League because, "I fight for the little guy, and a big organization like this? You [tend to] forget all about him."

Thinking of it, that means he should distance himself from F4 too, or at the very least, Reed, since he was part of that Civil War bullshit too, though I guess he fucked Peter over personally less than Stark did...

[Revolutionary_Jack]

At the end of the day, the sad part is that the FF/Avengers do not meaningfully exist for Spider-Man. Spider-Man exists for them as "some guy I guess" but he's not a real presence in their lives.

So I think the wacky comedy hijinks works best and dodges the most questions.

[Lukmendes]

At the end of the day, the sad part is that the FF/Avengers do not meaningfully exist for Spider-Man. Spider-Man exists for them as "some guy I guess" but he's not a real presence in their lives.

So I think the wacky comedy hijinks works best and dodges the most questions.

Not to mention that F4/Avengers deal with very different bullshit compared to what Spidey fights, so him being close enough to them for some friendship, while not really being such an active part of their lives means they don't screw over each other, it's for the best really, we wouldn't want Spidey to be a parasitic presence in the setting like Batman is at DC.