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  1. #1
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    Default New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

    - 8 hours until the next Incursion and each member of the Illuminati is handling the situation in their own way. Banner is at the gamma bomb test site in New Mexico, Beast is discussing with his younger self, Dr Strange is drinking tea (he asks Wong if he is a good man to which Wong replies "NO"), Tony Stark is pouring shots but not drinking them, T'Challa visits Storm and talks about what could have been, Reed goes to see Valeria in Latveria and Black Bolt is on the moon crying with Lockjaw beside him.

    - They're waiting for the incursion to happen but to their shock nothing happens.

    - The Illuminati meet to discuss what happened. Banner thinks they might have made a mistake but Reed makes it clear that they had catalogued countless incursions and were positive of what they had seen. Stark notes that something had to have happened and BP agrees because if not, it means they would have killed a world for nothing.

    - Blackbolt then gestures and Reed translates, BB is asking where Namor is.

    - Four hours before that time, we see Namor meeting with the Cabal comprised of Maximus, Black Swan, Terrax and Thanos and his generals.

    - Namor gives a similar speech that was given at the beginning of the series about how "everything dies". Namor says he accepts that fact that everything dies but doesn't want to go quietly "mewling like a child". He notes that there's something out there that's trying to kill everything and he would do to it what it is trying to do to them. So, he asks the Cabal if they will help him kill worlds.

    - The issue ends on-Earth 9004 with Namor and the Cabal slaughtering the occupants of Earth-9004.

    I'm extremely curious as to where this series will go from here. Namor has completed his heel turn and I'm a bit surprised that Marvel allowed Hickman to take the character this far.

    One last thing, can we keep the thread clean and not use abusive/overly aggresive language? I notice that most of these threads end in harsh words being exchanged.

    Can we also keep AvX out of this thread, that was over two (2) years ago and we should all focus on the here and now.

  2. #2
    Amazing Member Stussyjones's Avatar
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    Namor the GOAT.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    I still don't really see this as a heel turn. I read it as Namor giving up everything for the sake of survival. I just loved the look on Reed's face when he realizes what Black Bolt asked.

    This just makes the wait for September's issue even longer to see what happens in the time skip.

  4. #4
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Namor is doing what has to be done. It's still not heroic to me, but is is the least of 2 evils. This is what the Illuminati got together for. To make these tough choices. I don't agree with him teaming up with Swan and Thanos as I feel they will turn on him, but there aren't too many options left. I have to admit. I am really disappointed with every Illuminati member EXCEPT Namor.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 08-20-2014 at 06:49 AM.
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  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Double 0's Avatar
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    Yep, another holy crap issue. Seriously, what is up with Reed and Doom in New Avengers? Just pure "hey Reed", "STFU Victor".

    The BP/Storm conversation was surprising, but good enough.

    But that ending. WOW. Blowing up other worlds for the sake of your own is one thing. Going into other worlds, slaughtering the heroes, and THEN blowing up the world? That's almost as bad as Mapmakers and other Incursion based threats.

    I guess it needs to be done. At least for now, but I don't see Cap and the Avengers being cool with that.


    The rest of the Illuminati need to get the hell up and do something though.

  6. #6
    Amazing Member Vexham28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    I still don't really see this as a heel turn. I read it as Namor giving up everything for the sake of survival. I just loved the look on Reed's face when he realizes what Black Bolt asked.

    This just makes the wait for September's issue even longer to see what happens in the time skip.
    Agreed, I see this as the logical next step for Namor. He wants to ensure his earth survives any/all future incursions, and will take any means to make it happen.

    Excellent issue. Particularly Black Panther's story, very touching. Also, Reed's interaction with Doom. Great.
    Last edited by Vexham28; 08-20-2014 at 06:51 AM.
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  7. #7
    Amazing Member smoothrunes's Avatar
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    Eh, Namor's never really been a straight edged type of hero anyway. It's actually believable that he would be the one to go to such lengths.
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  8. #8
    Amazing Member Stussyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Namor is doing what has to be done. I don't agree with him teaming up with Swan and Thanos, but there aren't too many options left. I have to admit. I am really disappointed with every Illuminati member EXCEPT Namor.
    Yep they just can't make the tough decision it seems

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Namor is doing what has to be done. It's still not heroic to me, but is is the least of 2 evils. This is what the Illuminati got together for. To make these tough choices. I don't agree with him teaming up with Swan and Thanos as I feel they will turn on him, but there aren't too many options left. I have to admit. I am really disappointed with every Illuminati member EXCEPT Namor.
    Really what will kill the rest of the team is knowing that they share responsibility for the path Namor went. If Tony hadn't told him to leave...then Namor would not have gone to such lengths. And in a time crunch they had with an Incursion, one has to take whatever allies you could find.

    One complaint I do have is wouldn't BP have better security to stop the prisoners from escaping? Although it looks like they don't have access to the planet killing bombs.

  10. #10
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    On the one hand, I see Hickman's Namor throwing in with the Cabal, as it is called. On the other hand, I see Robinson's Namor in All New Invaders taking a break from Incursions to be chummy with his comrades and do some clean-cut heroism. Hickman's had to integrate Robinson's work into his twice this issue, what with Reed and Sue meeting Val with Doom in Latveria. Won't take long before he learns of the incursions I bet.
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Global Honored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post

    One complaint I do have is wouldn't BP have better security to stop the prisoners from escaping? Although it looks like they don't have access to the planet killing bombs.
    In this end of days, last hours scenario then I don't think guarding prisoners was a top priority.
    Also, I believe Maximus had the biggest hand in their release/escape w/o the Illuminati's knowledge. I guess they are finding out now. Uh oh.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Global Honored View Post
    In this end of days, last hours scenario then I don't think guarding prisoners was a top priority.
    Also, I believe Maximus had the biggest hand in their release/escape w/o the Illuminati's knowledge. I guess they are finding out now. Uh oh.
    True enough. They weren't all thinking clearly and were prepared to die. And agreed on Maximum being the one who probably freed Thanos, Proximus, and Corvus.

    The newest Illuminati sin now: They all share some responsibility for what the Cabal will do.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Global Honored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stussyjones View Post
    Yep they just can't make the tough decision it seems
    I wouldn't necessarily say this. The decision they made had to be extremely tough. Not killing planets which would have at least temporarily saved yourself/your own is a devastating choice. Accepting death is not easy. Killing planets to save your own in some ways is the easier decision. Again - neither is ideal. There is no clear winning choice here. That is the nature of it. Namor did what he believed had to be done. Bruce, Reed, T'Challa, Tony, etc. made their own life sacrificing choice of facing the inevitable.

    Of course this is a Marvel comic book and we all are pretty sure that Marvel isn't going to stop making them anytime soon so some sort of resolution is coming...and I don't think it's going to get an easier for Namor, Reed, Illuminati and Cabal. Which makes for some fascinating reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    The newest Illuminati sin now: They all share some responsibility for what the Cabal will do.
    Absolutely. When Hickman (I believe it was JH anyway) said that New Avengers was going to be the most important book Marvel publishes, he wasn't joking.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    - 8 hours until the next Incursion and each member of the Illuminati is handling the situation in their own way. Banner is at the gamma bomb test site in New Mexico, Beast is discussing with his younger self, Dr Strange is drinking tea (he asks Wong if he is a good man to which Wong replies "NO"), Tony Stark is pouring shots but not drinking them, T'Challa visits Storm and talks about what could have been, Reed goes to see Valeria in Latveria and Black Bolt is on the moon crying with Lockjaw beside him.

    - They're waiting for the incursion to happen but to their shock nothing happens.

    - The Illuminati meet to discuss what happened. Banner thinks they might have made a mistake but Reed makes it clear that they had catalogued countless incursions and were positive of what they had seen. Stark notes that something had to have happened and BP agrees because if not, it means they would have killed a world for nothing.


    - Blackbolt then gestures and Reed translates, BB is asking where Namor is.

    - Four hours before that time, we see Namor meeting with the Cabal comprised of Maximus, Black Swan, Terrax and Thanos and his generals.

    - Namor gives a similar speech that was given at the beginning of the series about how "everything dies". Namor says he accepts that fact that everything dies but doesn't want to go quietly "mewling like a child". He notes that there's something out there that's trying to kill everything and he would do to it what it is trying to do to them. So, he asks the Cabal if they will help him kill worlds.

    - The issue ends on-Earth 9004 with Namor and the Cabal slaughtering the occupants of Earth-9004.
    Isn't that a surprise? I was discussing this only last week, that maybe the Incursions were a figment, and Hickman writes this into the story. I know it may not turn out that way, but that Namor and Thanos killed the next world Incursion, but just that the idea was broached and then quickly shifted to one side, was incredible coincidence.

    We have one group who obviously can't go on anymore and just give up to let the earth die in an Incursion. Then we have another group who are willing to continue the job of the Black Swan, as though it was Namors idea to get the help of Thanos. I wonder if BS knew that the Illuminati were mostly going to give up, and one would be her consort? Do we think this has been pathetic, or, has it been a rejection of the Black Swans methods? On one level, the New Avengers Illuminati, have been a standing joke to the Black Swan, and she's played them like a harmonica. On another level, they have surpassed her expectations, by not engaging in mass murder, and only Namor has shown the tendency BS requires. In a way, this planet Earth has survived, with a split in their leadership, unlike anything before.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-20-2014 at 07:15 AM.

  15. #15
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    Really what will kill the rest of the team is knowing that they share responsibility for the path Namor went. If Tony hadn't told him to leave...then Namor would not have gone to such lengths. And in a time crunch they had with an Incursion, one has to take whatever allies you could find.

    One complaint I do have is wouldn't BP have better security to stop the prisoners from escaping? Although it looks like they don't have access to the planet killing bombs.
    I'll grant the argument last time Namor's action were borne from necessity and inaction on the part of the others, but active slaughter is his choice and his choice alone. This is like stage two preconventional morality.
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