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  1. #1
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    Default New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

    - 8 hours until the next Incursion and each member of the Illuminati is handling the situation in their own way. Banner is at the gamma bomb test site in New Mexico, Beast is discussing with his younger self, Dr Strange is drinking tea (he asks Wong if he is a good man to which Wong replies "NO"), Tony Stark is pouring shots but not drinking them, T'Challa visits Storm and talks about what could have been, Reed goes to see Valeria in Latveria and Black Bolt is on the moon crying with Lockjaw beside him.

    - They're waiting for the incursion to happen but to their shock nothing happens.

    - The Illuminati meet to discuss what happened. Banner thinks they might have made a mistake but Reed makes it clear that they had catalogued countless incursions and were positive of what they had seen. Stark notes that something had to have happened and BP agrees because if not, it means they would have killed a world for nothing.

    - Blackbolt then gestures and Reed translates, BB is asking where Namor is.

    - Four hours before that time, we see Namor meeting with the Cabal comprised of Maximus, Black Swan, Terrax and Thanos and his generals.

    - Namor gives a similar speech that was given at the beginning of the series about how "everything dies". Namor says he accepts that fact that everything dies but doesn't want to go quietly "mewling like a child". He notes that there's something out there that's trying to kill everything and he would do to it what it is trying to do to them. So, he asks the Cabal if they will help him kill worlds.

    - The issue ends on-Earth 9004 with Namor and the Cabal slaughtering the occupants of Earth-9004.

    I'm extremely curious as to where this series will go from here. Namor has completed his heel turn and I'm a bit surprised that Marvel allowed Hickman to take the character this far.

    One last thing, can we keep the thread clean and not use abusive/overly aggresive language? I notice that most of these threads end in harsh words being exchanged.

    Can we also keep AvX out of this thread, that was over two (2) years ago and we should all focus on the here and now.

  2. #2
    Amazing Member Stussyjones's Avatar
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    Namor the GOAT.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member dzub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stussyjones View Post
    Namor the GOAT.
    he's the OG of Marvel Comics.Literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Can we get a new book titled "Dark Avengers" with the Cabal PLEASE???

    The Illuminati is severely underpowered if they are going to try and stop the Cabal. Severely.
    I hope doom joins this cabal too, he fits in the tech/magical needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbeezy561 View Post
    I knew Namor would do what he did the biggest surprise this issue was Storm and T'challa having sex, didn't seen that coming.
    that's the only part of this issue i hated...but hey BP felt better after that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    And we also got the Axis solicits where there will be a Sorceress Supreme, so… Strange loses the title again?
    this year have'nt been kind on him, give him a break marvel!!

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    Astonishing Member dzub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DjessNL View Post
    How would you guys change the Cabal line up?
    i prefer the original cabal as they were sorta the analogs to the illuminati.
    this current one is way too overkill with power, needs more thinkers.
    maximus alone does'nt cut it to me.

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    Do you guys think thanos and his generals know that they can just destroy our earth and save the rest of the universe?, because I don't see how he would care about saving earth at all. Maybe Maximus made some deal with Black swan so she would not tell thanos about it. But this also leave the point on terrax, he does know about the fact that destroying earth saves the universe, so why would he also help Namor and maximus save it.

    And a bit OT here, does anyone know where is Galactus? after all the ultimate universe thing.

  6. #6
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    And wtf with people here saying namor and the Cabal went on a rampage. They have to get to the other earth to plant the bomb, and they probably encounter resistance over there. Does thanos and courvus look like they are enjoin the killing? well yea, it is kinda their thing.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzub View Post
    i prefer the original cabal as they were sorta the analogs to the illuminati.
    this current one is way too overkill with power, needs more thinkers.
    maximus alone does'nt cut it to me.
    i consider black swan to be a "thinker" or at least a brilliant manipulator. i could deal without thanos silly generals and that alt terrax though. kick them out and add magneto, doom, and shuri panther. that would be an awesome cabal.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i consider black swan to be a "thinker" or at least a brilliant manipulator. i could deal without thanos silly generals and that alt terrax though. kick them out and add magneto, doom, and shuri panther. that would be an awesome cabal.
    Well Thanos should actually be smarter that anyone from earth.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    Namor isn't smart enough to figure out a way to end the Incursions Niether are Thanos's Lieutenants. Thanos and Sawn are nihilists who aren't even interested in looking for a way out.

    That leaves Maximus to find a way to do something that not even Stark, Banther and McCoy could do. I don't see that working out for them.
    Thanos used to be a nihlist, over 20 years ago. He then became a heroic character for over a decade. Even this more villainous Thanos -- the product of the 616 Thanos merging with the Thanos of another universe -- likely isn't a nihlist, as Thanos long ago came to understand that there has to be life in order for there to be death.

    He will want to preserve at least the 616 universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I think the difference is a matter of civilization. No spider ever spun a web of malice nor did a shark ever hate what it set out to eat. Human's can kill with malice and pleasure.
    Have you never seen a cat torment something smaller (e.g. a cricket) it has no intention of eating? What you describe isn't unique to humans.

    Hell, an elephant can act on vengeance. They're smart enough to remember for years someone who has tried to hurt them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    A full and absolute reboot wouldn't be a bad idea, DC has never done a complete reboot, they've always left a little bit from the last universe.
    We are, for once, in absolute agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    I disagree. I really think a full reboot would probably kill Marvel altogether. A lot Marvel fans are Fans for the solo purpose of their continuity. It's one of the pillars that the company stands on.
    Those fans are lying to themselves then. Continuity is fluid at Marvel too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trident
    It would be a terrible idea, one of which they already tried and failed miserably at or do we so quickly forget Heroes Reborn?
    That was a half-hearted attempt at best. The original 616 remained, running parallel to the new continuity and unchanged. That wasn't even close to a full reboot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Global Honored View Post
    That is good but for arguments sake it isn't quite as easy.

    You could also sacrifice your own Earth to save the rest of the two current universes in peril and therefore prevent future incursions to your universe, basically saving the rest of your universe except for Earth...for now. All things eventually die of course. Cosmic scale existentialism.

    But if you are Earth A and you decide to destroy Earth B then just killing one other Earth doesn't stop the problem, it isn't that easy...the incursions don't stop after killing one Earth. You potentially have to continue to kill all the rest of the Earths until yours is the last survivor if you want to save your Earth along with the rest of your universe.
    True enough, but there is an end to the alternate realities somewhere. It's certainly possible for one Earth to emerge as the survivor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I don't think they are doing continuity that much anymore.
    Agreement again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I disagree. Choosing to act is choosing to murder. Choosing not to act is simply dying with the rest. The complete responsibility will rest on the sole being who caused the incursions. If you don't act and they die and you do act and they die the difference is that you haven't killed them, or anyone else. You imply that non-action qualifies as responsibility and I reject that. Non-action just means you've decided not to be complicit in murder.
    You've still made a choice, though, and the deaths that follow are a direct result of your choice.

    You say you reject the notion of responsibility being involved with non-action, but you actually cannot reject it. There is no such thing as winning the game by not playing here. You're already playing. Now, what happens next is determined by you.

    Responsibilities we don't choose fall to us all, and they do so constantly. Responsibilities fall to us as citizens to be involved in our societies and try to improve them. Responsibilities fall to us as parents to see to our offsprings' well-being. Responsibilities fall to us as human beings to be compassionate and considerate.

    Hell, that's the whole schtick behind Spider-Man: He has greater power than most people, so he has greater responsibility than most people. Not because he chose that power or its accompanying responsibility, but because both those fell to him.

    That one has the capacity -- and sometimes even the right -- to ignore their responsibilities makes them no less charged with the duty.

    In the Illuminati's case, they learned of the Incursions and the responsibility to act on that knowledge to save lives fell to them. They then claimed complete and inescapable responsibility for how things proceeded by keeping the matter to themselves -- even going as far as mindwiping Cap.

    I won't deny that they had the right to let the 616 universe and Universe 4,290,001 die. They completely had the right to abandon their responsibilities (to the situation, to their families, their kingdoms, and so on and so forth). They always had the responsibility to act and save as much life as possible, however, and if no lives were saved, that would then be on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    The facts you've given -like the facts in the story- are a dead end designed to drag a character into slime. A cul-de-sac with no real out and since this is a marvel comic no real consequences.
    Well, sometimes that's life, brother. Real life at that. We get stuck with shitty choices that make us feel like slime all the time. Raging at the situation or refusing to make a binding decision between offered alternatives won't change that ourselves and others will be affected by our inaction as much as by making a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    If I act once then I'll have to act again and again and again because I'll have given the entity who demands that I make the choice that power over me ...
    Said entity already has that power over you. Again, you're playing the game whether you want to or not. Your choice of inaction is one of the choices that was offered to you, not something you have devised outside the given parameters.

    All this is assuming, of course, that we can really pin this whole thing on an entity and not just a natural disaster. Either way, though, you are already playing the game and have no way to not play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    ... so it'll just keep going and going until the dead are without number, just to keep what I love and by then I won't care about what I love because I won't be me anymore. With each death I loose a bit of myself.
    Well, if you're a hero, it's not supposed to be about you. It's supposed to be about those you have the power to help.

    An earlier issue of this series used triage as a metaphor for the dilemma faced by the Great Society and Illuminati. That was an apt comparison.

    In crisis situations, medical professionals have to assess the greatest and most immediate needs -- in other words, where they can do the most good, with the objective being to preserve the most life.

    In a more controlled environment, such as a hospital waiting room, that may mean they can save everyone. On a battlefield or at the site of a mass shooting, terrorist attack or even a natural disaster, however, triage may mean stepping away from those beyond one's ability to save and focusing their attention on those they still can.

    What they don't do, though, is choose to let everyone die just because they couldn't save them all. Every person has this responsibility to do what is within their power, but, as a medical professional or self-proclaimed hero in a comic book, you have gone as far as to own that responsibility.

    The Illuminati took that a step further by denying anyone else the opportunity to take responsibility for the situation with the Incursions. Its outcome, then, is entirely on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I agree, in the case of the Illuminati Hickman has dragged them thoroughly into the mud with only a slim chance of pulling them out again, what they did this issue is about as pathetic as you can get. Sadly I doubt anyone will care in a year or two. Then again I doubt anyone at marvel really cares either or has discussed this with as much detail and passion as we have.
    I'm confused now. It sounds here like you're angered by the heroes' inaction, but I thought inaction has been the choice you've been pushing as the more moral decision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I do and I don't reject the facts of the story but I don't approve or agree with the choices made.
    Totally fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    Not that it matters.
    Of course it matters. "Vote with your wallet," as Joey Q used to say (which I did by not buying any Marvel books for about five years after "One More Day").

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    Main problem is marvel still wants us me to think of these people as heroes I can't.
    Can you not think of the field medic as a hero who walks away from the soldier who has been almost blown in half by a howitzer to save the soldier who has only (lol) been cut down by a .50 caliber shell that took a limb with it?

    If you cannot see that medic as a hero, then the problem, I'm afraid must be said, lies with yourself rather than with Marvel.

    Arguably, the most noble course of action would have been to execute the soldier who could not be saved before moving on to the one who possibly could be. Understandably, no one would want that responsibility, but making that choice beats letting someone who is dying anyway experience excruciating agony.

    These are the kinds of choices soldiers have had to make. The difference between heroes who have made those kinds of choices and those who wouldn't are simply how far outside themselves they are able to look.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Global Honored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    i consider black swan to be a "thinker" or at least a brilliant manipulator. i could deal without thanos silly generals and that alt terrax though. kick them out and add magneto, doom, and shuri panther. that would be an awesome cabal.
    Yes, from what we have seen Swan certainly has the gift to influence men's minds and actions. I realize Thanos and Terrax are also in play but watch out b/c she is going to be a force to deal with. Both against the Cabal and within their ranks.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    I still don't really see this as a heel turn. I read it as Namor giving up everything for the sake of survival. I just loved the look on Reed's face when he realizes what Black Bolt asked.

    This just makes the wait for September's issue even longer to see what happens in the time skip.

  12. #12
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    Namor is doing what has to be done. It's still not heroic to me, but is is the least of 2 evils. This is what the Illuminati got together for. To make these tough choices. I don't agree with him teaming up with Swan and Thanos as I feel they will turn on him, but there aren't too many options left. I have to admit. I am really disappointed with every Illuminati member EXCEPT Namor.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 08-20-2014 at 06:49 AM.
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    Amazing Member Stussyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Namor is doing what has to be done. I don't agree with him teaming up with Swan and Thanos, but there aren't too many options left. I have to admit. I am really disappointed with every Illuminati member EXCEPT Namor.
    Yep they just can't make the tough decision it seems

  14. #14
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    On the one hand, I see Hickman's Namor throwing in with the Cabal, as it is called. On the other hand, I see Robinson's Namor in All New Invaders taking a break from Incursions to be chummy with his comrades and do some clean-cut heroism. Hickman's had to integrate Robinson's work into his twice this issue, what with Reed and Sue meeting Val with Doom in Latveria. Won't take long before he learns of the incursions I bet.
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    Fantastic Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    On the one hand, I see Hickman's Namor throwing in with the Cabal, as it is called. On the other hand, I see Robinson's Namor in All New Invaders taking a break from Incursions to be chummy with his comrades and do some clean-cut heroism. Hickman's had to integrate Robinson's work into his twice this issue, what with Reed and Sue meeting Val with Doom in Latveria. Won't take long before he learns of the incursions I bet.
    This has been a repeated problem for Hickman though. His other Marvel works were mostly self contained characters, while the cast of New Avengers (and Avengers) are subject to the whims of other editorial and writing teams. I can imagine for him it's a bit frustrating. At least part of the 8 months later time jump has to be motivated by this.

    As for the issue itself, it was fairly awesome. I am curious what Dr. Strange was up to. I wasn't sure if he was planning to stop the Incursion himself (which I believe he can at this point) or if he was fleeing this plane of existence. It was even stranger no one noticed he wasn't there, they'd just all focused on Namor.

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