New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[People Of The Earth]

People of the Earth is mistaken. The Cabal kept the universe from ending. That's what they did.

You are right, however, that the solution might not come from this universe, nor have anything to do with the characters in the book, but I'm not sure I agree.

If, however, any Earth heroes, or anyone from this universe, do end up playing a role to stop the incursions, then my point stands. The Cabal made it possible.

Given one of my very first sentence in my initial post was "The Cabal saved their Earth and both universes, yes. ", I don't see why you paint me as "mistaken"...

Also, yes, if 616 saves the day, then your statement will prove to be correct and just.
At this point of the story however, it's both false and arrogant to presume only 616 can solve the problem of Incursions, when we know an infinite number of universes, each with its sets of geniuses,super-beings and cosmical entities, are being involved.
It's too absolute a statement to make.

[Mark]

I think that bears repeating.... it's not just one Earth being saved. You are saving a universe with all its galaxies, solar systems, and planets. It is because the Earths are at the point of Incursion that it became a problem dumped in the Illuminati's lap. Probably the Skrulls, Kree, Shi'ar etc aren't even aware of it, at least not that we've seen.

Here' s a thought. I wonder if the Negative Zone is exempt??

If so why not just move the Earth into the negative zone until the next incursion passes? Then again I don't think that would increase the body count and at this point I think any method that saves lives without mass murder involved isn't going to be used in the story. The bloodlust just isn't satisfied yet.

And I still want to see how Reed explains to Sue why exactly he kept her in the dark about all of this.

[Emma's Midriff]

Given one of my very first sentence in my initial post was "The Cabal saved their Earth and both universes, yes. ", I don't see why you paint me as "mistaken"...

Also, yes, if 616 saves the day, then your statement will prove to be correct and just.
At this point of the story however, it's both false and arrogant to presume only 616 can solve the problem of Incursions, when we know an infinite number of universes, each with its sets of geniuses,super-beings and cosmical entities, are being involved.
It's too absolute a statement to make.

Well, like I said, I think the book being about 616 heroes kind of indicates that they will play some sort of role in solving the problem. I guess we'll see.

[TresDias]

Given one of my very first sentence in my initial post was "The Cabal saved their Earth and both universes, yes. ", I don't see why you paint me as "mistaken"...

Also, yes, if 616 saves the day, then your statement will prove to be correct and just.
At this point of the story however, it's both false and arrogant to presume only 616 can solve the problem of Incursions, when we know an infinite number of universes, each with its sets of geniuses,super-beings and cosmical entities, are being involved.
It's too absolute a statement to make.

I'm not seeing any arrogant assumptions, and barely any assumptions at all that aren't coming from your end. Really, in the first place, what could possibly be arrogant about assuming someone from the 616 will play a role in resolving this thing? You're going to have to explain that one.

Anyway, all that was said that you felt a need to start this pointless back and forth about was "they are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved."

Unless you think the problem cannot be solved, what is incorrect about this?

They've saved the populations of two (now three) universes from extinction. Meaning there are three universes worth of people around to seek a solution. Three universes worth of people who would not be around to look for a solution if they were dead.

Meaning the possibility of their finding a solution is there. Because they aren't dead. Which they would be without Namor and the Cabal.

So, let's return to the statement that you felt such a need to take issue with: "they are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved."

Where you got all these notions of assumptions about Earth or the 616 only you know, but from over here, it looks like you invented something to argue about. No one ever said that the solution has to come from Earth or even just the 616 universe.

Whatever the case, over and above where the solution comes from, the 616 and its Earth will be around to enjoy the benefits of the solution because of the Cabal. I challenge you to find something in that statement to disagree with.

If so why not just move the Earth into the negative zone until the next incursion passes?

I can't see any obvious holes in this idea. Has anything like that been done before? And could it be done without harming the Earth?

Then again I don't think that would increase the body count and at this point I think any method that saves lives without mass murder involved isn't going to be used in the story. The bloodlust just isn't satisfied yet.

The way you use "bloodlust" is very strange.

Well, like I said, I think the book being about 616 heroes kind of indicates that they will play some sort of role in solving the problem. I guess we'll see.

Will surprise the shit out of me if they're ultimately irrlevant in all this.

[Mark]

Another half-truth. They've saved an infinitely larger number of sentient life; two universes permanently, and their own temporarily.

For every Earth they destroy, the net gain of life they've saved outnumbers those lost at least a million to one.

Also, of course Hickman didn't necessarily want heroes for this tale; he wanted flawed human beings, as those are what morality tales are made up of.

So flawed that they murder innocent people. If you are playing a cold numbers game where one life is meaningless when weighed against ten lives then this is working, it's the cold math of primitive survival against high principle and it's being played by characters who before have always stood for principle and have now at the whims of the writer abandoned those principles. To me they are accomplishing nothing more than murder, because sooner or later based on the fact that no one knows to stop the incursions they worlds they are saving are just going to be blown up later as the incursions loop around looking for more Earths to blow up. There is nothing permanent about their solution, they're just bailing out the Titanic.

[Mark]

The way you use "bloodlust" is very strange.

I use it in terms of the authors seeming wish to rack up the largest body count before the end of the story.

[Juggernaut Punch]

Thanos, if anyone, should be the one that comes up with a solution to the Incursions. He's got more brains than the rest of the Illuminati put together.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

I feel that Namor has allied himself with bad guys willing to do the right thing as he sees fit rather than people that presume to be good but won't make the hard choices for the greater good. I find the idea of Stark and Reed chickening out considering their actions to do "the right thing" during Civil War hilarious. They'll serve the US Government's agenda but won't make the tough choice for the sake of the entire planet?

They are meant to be futurists concerned with the evolution and preservation of humanity, but will get drunk and visit their kids who have no future in moments of weakness? BP will try get a final bedpost notch in on his ex-wife after dishonoring his entire lineage of kings and protectors? Hulk, who literally held his adopted world together with his bare hands was going to drink himself into a semi-stupor at the blast site that gave him that power? Black Bolt, who fought to the death against Vulcan, was going to emo out on the Moon rather than go to his beloved in Attilan in New York? Beast was going to read a goddamn book rather than beg Trish Tilby to at least hold his hand as the world, nay the universe, came to and end after apologising to his younger self for dooming him to an early death?

With Captain Universe, Starbrand and Future Franklin on call (Future Franklin and current Franklin are basically tethered and co-dependent based on Hickman's FF run), the idea Namor had to even call together a Cabal is just an indictment of the selective arrogance and elected privilege to be heroes and martyrs of the rest of the Illuminati. They fought Thanos and lost their lives to protect their universe but now won't even pull triggers on bombs they built to save their universe? Nonsense, inconsistent nonsense.

[jackolover]

Why exactly would that have saved the multiverse any more incursions?

I thought Black Swan said if you destroy 616-Earth, it stops the Incursions period.

[fod_xp]

I thought Black Swan said if you destroy 616-Earth, it stops the Incursions period.

Now this sounds like Hickman. I am pretty sure the name "Black Swan" itself is pretty indicative of the character's motivation and narrative purpose.

Black Swan Theory

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

I thought Black Swan said if you destroy 616-Earth, it stops the Incursions period.

Unreliable, villainous narrator in focus. The Earth 616 has the Nexus Of Realities in a Florida swamp intended to be guarded by Man-Thing, remember?

A Nexus of Realities sounds pretty important to me.

[People Of The Earth]

I'm not seeing any arrogant assumptions, and barely any assumptions at all that aren't coming from your end. Really, in the first place, what could possibly be arrogant about assuming someone from the 616 will play a role in resolving this thing? You're going to have to explain that one.

Anyway, all that was said that you felt a need to start this pointless back and forth about was "they are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved."

Unless you think the problem cannot be solved, what is incorrect about this?

Pointless, yet you felt the need to barge in ...?
Anyway, the problem can be solved (never said the countrary ?) - what is incorrect is assuming the Illuminati, or 616, are the only ones able to solve the Incursions.
At this point of the story, it's senseless.

They've saved the populations of two (now three) universes from extinction. Meaning there are three universes worth of people around to seek a solution. Three universes worth of people who would not be around to look for a solution if they were dead.

Meaning the possibility of their finding a solution is there. Because they aren't dead. Which they would be without Namor and the Cabal.

Yeah, except the remark I anwered to wasn't about "them" finding a solution specifically, was it ?

The actual statement was saying the potential to solve the problem was there thanks to the Cabal saving three universes.
And what I'm saying is the potential to solve the problem was always there, with every universe part of the multiverse.
Saving these three universes or failing at it doesn't change that.

"They are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved" is factually wrong.
"They are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved by someone of these three universes" would have been factually correct however.

So, let's return to the statement that you felt such a need to take issue with: "they are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved."

Where you got all these notions of assumptions about Earth or the 616 only you know, but from over here, it looks like you invented something to argue about. No one ever said that the solution has to come from Earth or even just the 616 universe.

It's definitiely been said, last instance no further than on the previous page of this thread...So, I guess from other here, you simply didn't notice.

Whatever the case, over and above where the solution comes from, the 616 and its Earth will be around to enjoy the benefits of the solution because of the Cabal. I challenge you to find something in that statement to disagree with.

Given I don't expect Marvel to shut down or reboot its comics division anytime soon, I'll let you work on your challenge by yourself.

[Dabrikishaw]

I'm just pumped that Corvus is back. The dude left quite an impression on me during Infinity.

Namor, you magnificent bastard.

[classicgmer]

I'm just pumped that Corvus is back. The dude left quite an impression on me during Infinity.

Namor, you magnificent bastard.

Yeah he (along with Proxima) left quite the impression on me as well...as being overrated. All their "power" is wrapped up in their Deus ex machina weapons (which to me is kind of lame) & it'll will be pretty interesting what other abilities will be pulled out of their butts in future fights( like chumping out Hulk & somehow magically reverting him to banner)

[TresDias]

Pointless, yet you felt the need to barge in ...?

"Barge in" in on an open discussion in a public section of a public forum? =P Please think that over.

Anyway, I "barged in" because the dispute you started was pointless. That's self-explanatory.

Anyway, the problem can be solved (never said the countrary ?) - what is incorrect is assuming the Illuminati, or 616, are the only ones able to solve the Incursions.

Which absolutely no one has said.

Yeah, except the remark I anwered to wasn't about "them" finding a solution specifically, was it ?

The actual statement was saying the potential to solve the problem was there thanks to the Cabal saving three universes.
And what I'm saying is the potential to solve the problem was always there, with every universe part of the multiverse.
Saving these three universes or failing at it doesn't change that.

If the solution could come out of one of these universes, then, yes, it very much does change that. What are you even arguing?

"The potential to solve the problem was always there"? Well, no kidding. The potential was always there for Alexander Fleming to discover penicillin, but if he had died during World War I (a very real possibility), then he wouldn't have. This, too, is self-explanatory.

"They are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved" is factually wrong.
"They are the ones who made it possible for the problem to be solved by someone of these three universes" would have been factually correct however.

Dude, those are precisely the same statements. Sweet Jesus. What do you think people have been talking about when they said that? The person you were responding to when you started all this themselves had said the Cabal would probably not personally be solving the problem.

It's definitiely been said, last instance no further than on the previous page of this thread...So, I guess from other here, you simply didn't notice.

You will have one hell of a time proving this claim since not even one post on page 43 (or any other) says that. =P

Given I don't expect Marvel to shut down or reboot its comics division anytime soon, I'll let you work on your challenge by yourself.

Well, I'm not the one making up stuff to make a stink about, am I?