New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[Darthkostis]

Kang is one of the guys you're really better off just not asking for help because Kang will find a way to make it all about whether or not the universe lives or dies at Kang's hand.

I mean, the guy just brought the Celestial Executioner to earth just so that the heroes would have to fight it and open it up so that he could eat it's essence so he could conquer the universe.

The way I see it, is that Kang is a Universal threat, whereas the Incursions are an Omniversal/Multiversal threat. I wouldn't bring him in right away and with Thanos already on the roster I'm not sure if he is needed, but he'd make for a good "last resort".

[Aaric Rivad]

Sooner or later even this storylines thirst for blood will end and a solution will be found, but Namor and the Illuminati will still be murderers and I doubt very much that many will stop buying the stories they will be staring in the future or even consider their actions wrong. Billions, trillions, zillions... They'll kill them and skip away from it in a year or two no one in the mu will be talking about it because they'll be busy with the next event.

Keep this in mind the next time someone decides to bring back the Phoenix Force. How many billions (or trillions) of living beings died in order for a few thousand mutants to have their powers restored on Earth? Those poor aliens never got a second thought.

At least these men are agonizing over the choices that they've made. I don't agree with the way they've thrown up their hands and surrendered to the inevitable, since it goes against everything they've fought for over the last couple of years, but there have definitely been consequences.

[TakoM]

Nobody who isn't on the Illuminati really has a chance of stopping this. If having Reed, Star, Banner, McCoy, Strange, and T'Challa in a room together doesn't solve this problem, nothing will. What, will Luke Cage yell at the incursion while Cap throws his shield at it?

The incursions by nature are not something you can deal with via classic superhero-ing, they're a scientific problem and require scientific solutions unless you go the Namor destroy-everything-route. Besides Pym and Doom (who, lets face it, is just a less-capable Reed) I don't see anyone else of being of any use. Maybe Loki, but Strange is just as capable a sorcerer as him imo.

It's much simpler let the universe die and let Franklin Richards take every soul to a new universe outside the current multiverse (not a 100% solution the old multiverse still dying). The point of the whole story is how ever you throw it, the Illuminati aren't fit for the job. If Tony or Reed where at there prime like in the past before civil war they maybe could do something but the way Hickman show them they are behind stupidity.

Reed Richards is a good example his father is a(or was) a member of the original Shield Organisation which stopped once Galactus, know about the celestial baby in the earthcore and invented the LMD's and the first time machine, and his(reed's) son has cosmic power behind believe nearly godlike.

You can put them categories : Knowledge(Nathaniel Richards) , Power(Franklin Richards) ,....Bravery( supposed Reed Richards).

Without bravery a hero is powerless Hickman has get this right also how fear paralyse and corrupt the human mind that goes for all the members of the Illuminati.(same goes for civil war)

[Vexham28]

I do and I don't reject the facts of the story but I don't approve or agree with the choices made. Not that it matters.

Main problem is marvel still wants us me to think of these people as heroes I can't. Worse in a year it'll be "Great Society? Who cares, that was last year and look here's the fill in the blank supervillain on his annual attack on Earth in our next super big mega event! See, the Illuminati are saving people now, they are heroes again! Who cares who they murdered before, that was so last year, come , move on, nothing to see back then and that guy isn't even working for us anymore, thrill now to our latest big event!" There in my opinion is the solid core of cynicism that is the heart of marvel. Body count matters when you are a villain, but when you are a hero body count can be swept under the rug quickly. It's been there since Avengers Dissasembled and I don't think it will ever leave because it makes them money.

If anything, Hickman is trying to show us that these heroes are very flawed men.

That's the point.

Yes, they'll probably defeat the Cabal, and put a stop to the incursions, in some peaceful manner. But at the end of it we're supposed to think about what they came close to doing (or didn't). It's interesting. Their not perfect.

[Iron Maiden]

So the Illuminati didn't also find it strange that Doctor Strange wasn't present as well? Hickman seems to be telegraphing hard toward the common speculation that Black Priests are rogue Stranges. I am still curious about how Hickman will flesh all of this out though. And let it be known that Hickman is one of the best Doom writers of all time.

Agreed. I also think that it was interesting that Susan, Valeria and Victor were suspicious of Reed's motives for this late night visit to Latverian. Val and Doom appeared to have guessed it since Doom specifically mentions "the end of the world" I sure hope he does force his way into the Illuminati.

On another note, I loved the scene between Ororo and T'Challa and that he thought of her with the end of the world coming. Hickman finally gave them a fitting closure to their relationship without all the acrimony started by some of the X-title writers.

[smoothrunes]

Does anyone know off hand what issues the Black Priests, Ivory Kings, Mapmakers, and Rabum Alal show up? Have we seen them all before? The team hasn't faced any of them yet right? They only fought the mapmakers minions or something?

I should probably just read all of this and Avengers again before the time jump...

The Ivory Kings and Rabum Alal have yet to show up in any issue, there's only passing mentions of them. I remember actual Mapmakers showing up to fight the Great Society and the Black Priests were shown laying waste to an alternate Earth Illuminati that had Magneto and Doom on the roster, plus Charles was still alive.

[Cyberet]

Super charge Kitty Pryde to make Earth Intangible.
If she could be the heroine of Ultimate Universe, she can be the heroine in 616.

Get Franklin Richards to make Earth intangible during incursions.

Get Tony and Vision to work together to make earth intangible.

Teleport Earth out of incursion as shown in Avengers arc.

There are numerous ways to avoid getting 2 Earths to "collide" so their universes don't blow up.

[Cyberet]

Option 1: Two universes die, including Earth A's population and Earth B's population.
Option 2: Two universes live, except for Earth B's population which dies.

Let's rephrase that:

Option 1: Earth B's population + Earth A's population + the rest of the population of Earth B's universe + the rest of the population of Earth A's universe all end up dying.
Option 2: Earth B's population ends up dying. Everyone else survives.

I choose option 3. Earth A and B all survive.
When presented with options, always choose the one not on the list.

[dzub]

u signed up just to tell us that? wow

[Cyberet]

u signed up just to tell us that? wow

You gotta start somewhere. And am I wrong?

I found the moral dilemma behind the Illuminati to be rather unnecessary, which I believe is the center of discussion.
It seems they were too busy jumping to conclusions then start judging themselves and each other before figuring out the real problem.
This is a low point for the collection of some of the most brilliant minds in 616.

[ShaokhaN]

I choose option 3. Earth A and B all survive.
When presented with options, always choose the one not on the list.

The Illuminati tried finding an option 3 but didn't. You can argue they should have found one all you want, but that's what's in the book. So I'm addressing the situation in the book, namely the Illuminati facing an incursion with only minutes to spare and only two options on the table.

[ShaokhaN]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what's going to happen. The mapmakers are Adaptoids from this universe, it looks like the Black Priests are possibly due to Doctor Strange, the Ivory Kings makes me think of Stark's new all-white armor. Is perhaps Rabum Alal the making of T'Challa, King of the Dead? I'm curious to see how this all plays out.

I know that Strange as a Black Priest is what looks likely given his departure with the helmet and the November solicitations, but I'm hoping it's a bit more subtle than that. For example, he could perhaps attempt to infiltrate the group to learn more about the incursions and ultimately defeat them...

Also, I'm a bit torn on the Black Priests' levels of power. On the one hand their "words of power" have proven to be extremely powerful, on the other we've seen one get demolished by the Black Swan, a character I see as far below Strange in terms of power.

[Cyberet]

In complete agreement. In the book, the Illuminati looked at the two options Black Swan presented, then took them to heart.
Without thinking, they decided that there was only one choice other than to not act - blow up other Earths.
... Big fluffy eyes from beautiful women can be most fatal.

Dunno why, but I found the case presented by SpiderPig in the Ultimate Universe to be more convincing.

[Cyberet]

If anything, Hickman is trying to show us that these heroes are very flawed men.

That's the point.

Yes, they'll probably defeat the Cabal, and put a stop to the incursions, in some peaceful manner. But at the end of it we're supposed to think about what they came close to doing (or didn't). It's interesting. Their not perfect.

I think so too. It does add a touch of realism though. No regime is perfect, but we get by with what we have.
Seems that the old Big Blue Boy Scout Hero is going out of phase. Comics are showing what heroes are like in the real world - just shades of gray.

[XPac]

Nobody who isn't on the Illuminati really has a chance of stopping this. If having Reed, Star, Banner, McCoy, Strange, and T'Challa in a room together doesn't solve this problem, nothing will. What, will Luke Cage yell at the incursion while Cap throws his shield at it?

The incursions by nature are not something you can deal with via classic superhero-ing, they're a scientific problem and require scientific solutions unless you go the Namor destroy-everything-route. Besides Pym and Doom (who, lets face it, is just a less-capable Reed) I don't see anyone else of being of any use. Maybe Loki, but Strange is just as capable a sorcerer as him imo.

Firstly I don't agree that Doom is less capable than Reed. The fact that Doom is both a sorcerer and scientist I would argue allows him to potentially explore more options than Reed. And the fact that Doom is likely willing to actually detonate the bombs (the only option they have on the table at the moment) means he's very viable solution of stopping the incursion. All they need to do is give him a bomb, and they're good to go.

At this point, really ANYONE willing to detonate a bomb is capable of saving both universes. The bombs are already built, it's just a matter of finding someone willing to use them. Hell, pay a guy standing in front of Home Depot 50 bucks to press the button, and you've found someone capable of saving both universes.

Secondly, considering the fact that the Illuminati are essentially doing nothing except lay down and allow the universe to be destroyed, I'd argue almost ANYONE would be more useful than the Illuminati at the moment.

Doom is an obvious choice. But Captain Britian works too, as the Captain Britian Corps in theory should be handling this anyways. Loki is a great choice especailly as he's an operative of the Sky Mothers. The main Avengers team right now has a Star Brand and an Captain Universe... maybe one of them can do something. It's worth a shot... worse case scenario they failed and you're no worse off than you are having the Illumianti do nothing.

Bottom line is that if the Illuminati are going to just lay down and allow themselves and the rest of the universe to just die, then the rest of the world deserves at least a shot at trying to stop these things. Even if they fail, there are people who will at least try UNLIKE the Illuminati in this issue. Again, Namor proves that to be the case.