New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[divad4686]

i consider black swan to be a "thinker" or at least a brilliant manipulator. i could deal without thanos silly generals and that alt terrax though. kick them out and add magneto, doom, and shuri panther. that would be an awesome cabal.

Well Thanos should actually be smarter that anyone from earth.

[AcesX1X]

stephen should join namor's cabal. he has already damned his soul anyway.

[hawkeyefan]

Just like Swan is doing, riding the wheel to the end. the Illuminati are not going to find a solution and neither is anyone they ask for help. Hickman is exploring the morals of these characters in a no win situation. They all know there is no solution, including Namor. In fact, Namor realized this before the others. The others just realized it last issue. Namor is just riding the wheel along with the Swan. Sooner or later he will sacrifice 616 just like all the other realities heroes viewed through the mirror. Destroy to many worlds and sooner or later you don't really care about your own. Destroy to many lives and soon you don't care about your own. That is going to be shown in the story I predict.

I've read through the whole thread and you've made a lot of posts that I think are spot on. I don't know if the story will actually end with the death if everything....I don't think it will....but the fact that I'm not sure is pretty huge considering this is a superhero comic.

I do and I don't reject the facts of the story but I don't approve or agree with the choices made. Not that it matters.

Main problem is marvel still wants us me to think of these people as heroes I can't. Worse in a year it'll be "Great Society? Who cares, that was last year and look here's the fill in the blank supervillain on his annual attack on Earth in our next super big mega event! See, the Illuminati are saving people now, they are heroes again! Who cares who they murdered before, that was so last year, come , move on, nothing to see back then and that guy isn't even working for us anymore, thrill now to our latest big event!" There in my opinion is the solid core of cynicism that is the heart of marvel. Body count matters when you are a villain, but when you are a hero body count can be swept under the rug quickly. It's been there since Avengers Dissasembled and I don't think it will ever leave because it makes them money.

Hey it looks like you've figured out how superhero comics work!

But seriously, what stories have "mattered"? Gimme some examples of what you mean when you say things like this.

Most stories are their own thing. I don't sit around and lament that the James Bond in "Goldeneye" doesn't reference the one in "For Your Eyes Only".

[DrTraveler]

I disagree. Choosing to act is choosing to murder. Choosing not to act is simply dying with the rest. The complete responsibility will rest on the sole being who caused the incursions. If you don't act and they die and you do act and they die the difference is that you haven't killed them, or anyone else. You imply that non-action qualifies as responsibility and I reject that. Non-action just means you've decided not to be complicit in murder.

The real world analog is the levy system protecting communities along the Mississippi. More than once the Army Corp has been faced with complete levy collapse in an area unless a partial destruction (and flooding) occurs to relieve pressure on the whole system. The moral thing to do every time is to demolish part of the levy (and if possible evacuate ahead of time).

That's what the illuminati face. Total multiversal collapse if they fail to act.

[Vic Vega]

Are those shot glasses empty?

Did Tony fall off the wagon in what he thought his last moments on Earth?

Is his despair over that failure on top of everything else driving him to suicide?

If so geez, that's dark. Even for this book.

[megaharrison]

Lol, what a great issue. The rise of the Cabal was fantastic.

[Hazard]

Absolutely hilarious issue.

Actually made me chuckle a couple of times.

Also, I could totally see a televised message from Doom telling all kids in Latveria to go to sleep on time.

[TresDias]

Namor isn't smart enough to figure out a way to end the Incursions Niether are Thanos's Lieutenants. Thanos and Sawn are nihilists who aren't even interested in looking for a way out.

That leaves Maximus to find a way to do something that not even Stark, Banther and McCoy could do. I don't see that working out for them.

Thanos used to be a nihlist, over 20 years ago. He then became a heroic character for over a decade. Even this more villainous Thanos -- the product of the 616 Thanos merging with the Thanos of another universe -- likely isn't a nihlist, as Thanos long ago came to understand that there has to be life in order for there to be death.

He will want to preserve at least the 616 universe.

I think the difference is a matter of civilization. No spider ever spun a web of malice nor did a shark ever hate what it set out to eat. Human's can kill with malice and pleasure.

Have you never seen a cat torment something smaller (e.g. a cricket) it has no intention of eating? What you describe isn't unique to humans.

Hell, an elephant can act on vengeance. They're smart enough to remember for years someone who has tried to hurt them.

A full and absolute reboot wouldn't be a bad idea, DC has never done a complete reboot, they've always left a little bit from the last universe.

We are, for once, in absolute agreement.

I disagree. I really think a full reboot would probably kill Marvel altogether. A lot Marvel fans are Fans for the solo purpose of their continuity. It's one of the pillars that the company stands on.

Those fans are lying to themselves then. Continuity is fluid at Marvel too.

It would be a terrible idea, one of which they already tried and failed miserably at or do we so quickly forget Heroes Reborn?

That was a half-hearted attempt at best. The original 616 remained, running parallel to the new continuity and unchanged. That wasn't even close to a full reboot.

That is good but for arguments sake it isn't quite as easy.

You could also sacrifice your own Earth to save the rest of the two current universes in peril and therefore prevent future incursions to your universe, basically saving the rest of your universe except for Earth...for now. All things eventually die of course. Cosmic scale existentialism.

But if you are Earth A and you decide to destroy Earth B then just killing one other Earth doesn't stop the problem, it isn't that easy...the incursions don't stop after killing one Earth. You potentially have to continue to kill all the rest of the Earths until yours is the last survivor if you want to save your Earth along with the rest of your universe.

True enough, but there is an end to the alternate realities somewhere. It's certainly possible for one Earth to emerge as the survivor.

I don't think they are doing continuity that much anymore.

Agreement again.

I disagree. Choosing to act is choosing to murder. Choosing not to act is simply dying with the rest. The complete responsibility will rest on the sole being who caused the incursions. If you don't act and they die and you do act and they die the difference is that you haven't killed them, or anyone else. You imply that non-action qualifies as responsibility and I reject that. Non-action just means you've decided not to be complicit in murder.

You've still made a choice, though, and the deaths that follow are a direct result of your choice.

You say you reject the notion of responsibility being involved with non-action, but you actually cannot reject it. There is no such thing as winning the game by not playing here. You're already playing. Now, what happens next is determined by you.

Responsibilities we don't choose fall to us all, and they do so constantly. Responsibilities fall to us as citizens to be involved in our societies and try to improve them. Responsibilities fall to us as parents to see to our offsprings' well-being. Responsibilities fall to us as human beings to be compassionate and considerate.

Hell, that's the whole schtick behind Spider-Man: He has greater power than most people, so he has greater responsibility than most people. Not because he chose that power or its accompanying responsibility, but because both those fell to him.

That one has the capacity -- and sometimes even the right -- to ignore their responsibilities makes them no less charged with the duty.

In the Illuminati's case, they learned of the Incursions and the responsibility to act on that knowledge to save lives fell to them. They then claimed complete and inescapable responsibility for how things proceeded by keeping the matter to themselves -- even going as far as mindwiping Cap.

I won't deny that they had the right to let the 616 universe and Universe 4,290,001 die. They completely had the right to abandon their responsibilities (to the situation, to their families, their kingdoms, and so on and so forth). They always had the responsibility to act and save as much life as possible, however, and if no lives were saved, that would then be on them.

The facts you've given -like the facts in the story- are a dead end designed to drag a character into slime. A cul-de-sac with no real out and since this is a marvel comic no real consequences.

Well, sometimes that's life, brother. Real life at that. We get stuck with shitty choices that make us feel like slime all the time. Raging at the situation or refusing to make a binding decision between offered alternatives won't change that ourselves and others will be affected by our inaction as much as by making a choice.

If I act once then I'll have to act again and again and again because I'll have given the entity who demands that I make the choice that power over me ...

Said entity already has that power over you. Again, you're playing the game whether you want to or not. Your choice of inaction is one of the choices that was offered to you, not something you have devised outside the given parameters.

All this is assuming, of course, that we can really pin this whole thing on an entity and not just a natural disaster. Either way, though, you are already playing the game and have no way to not play.

... so it'll just keep going and going until the dead are without number, just to keep what I love and by then I won't care about what I love because I won't be me anymore. With each death I loose a bit of myself.

Well, if you're a hero, it's not supposed to be about you. It's supposed to be about those you have the power to help.

An earlier issue of this series used triage as a metaphor for the dilemma faced by the Great Society and Illuminati. That was an apt comparison.

In crisis situations, medical professionals have to assess the greatest and most immediate needs -- in other words, where they can do the most good, with the objective being to preserve the most life.

In a more controlled environment, such as a hospital waiting room, that may mean they can save everyone. On a battlefield or at the site of a mass shooting, terrorist attack or even a natural disaster, however, triage may mean stepping away from those beyond one's ability to save and focusing their attention on those they still can.

What they don't do, though, is choose to let everyone die just because they couldn't save them all. Every person has this responsibility to do what is within their power, but, as a medical professional or self-proclaimed hero in a comic book, you have gone as far as to own that responsibility.

The Illuminati took that a step further by denying anyone else the opportunity to take responsibility for the situation with the Incursions. Its outcome, then, is entirely on them.

I agree, in the case of the Illuminati Hickman has dragged them thoroughly into the mud with only a slim chance of pulling them out again, what they did this issue is about as pathetic as you can get. Sadly I doubt anyone will care in a year or two. Then again I doubt anyone at marvel really cares either or has discussed this with as much detail and passion as we have.

I'm confused now. It sounds here like you're angered by the heroes' inaction, but I thought inaction has been the choice you've been pushing as the more moral decision?

I do and I don't reject the facts of the story but I don't approve or agree with the choices made.

Totally fair.

Not that it matters.

Of course it matters. "Vote with your wallet," as Joey Q used to say (which I did by not buying any Marvel books for about five years after "One More Day").

Main problem is marvel still wants us me to think of these people as heroes I can't.

Can you not think of the field medic as a hero who walks away from the soldier who has been almost blown in half by a howitzer to save the soldier who has only (lol) been cut down by a .50 caliber shell that took a limb with it?

If you cannot see that medic as a hero, then the problem, I'm afraid must be said, lies with yourself rather than with Marvel.

Arguably, the most noble course of action would have been to execute the soldier who could not be saved before moving on to the one who possibly could be. Understandably, no one would want that responsibility, but making that choice beats letting someone who is dying anyway experience excruciating agony.

These are the kinds of choices soldiers have had to make. The difference between heroes who have made those kinds of choices and those who wouldn't are simply how far outside themselves they are able to look.

[megaharrison]

I just remembered Hickman foreshadowed Namor doing this way back at the start of New Avengers.

[AcesX1X]

Are those shot glasses empty?

Did Tony fall off the wagon in what he thought his last moments on Earth?

Is his despair over that failure on top of everything else driving him to suicide?

If so geez, that's dark. Even for this book.

yes tony fell off the wagon and got wasted. this behavior seems to continue into axis and superior iron man. just what we need again -- drunk tony harassing people in an iron man suit.

[TresDias]

Worse in a year it'll be "Great Society? Who cares, that was last year and look here's the fill in the blank supervillain on his annual attack on Earth in our next super big mega event! See, the Illuminati are saving people now, they are heroes again! Who cares who they murdered before, that was so last year, come , move on, nothing to see back then and that guy isn't even working for us anymore, thrill now to our latest big event!" There in my opinion is the solid core of cynicism that is the heart of marvel. Body count matters when you are a villain, but when you are a hero body count can be swept under the rug quickly. It's been there since Avengers Dissasembled and I don't think it will ever leave because it makes them money.

Why do you continue to make this bitter, cynical forecast when none of us know that such offhand, flippant things will be said -- and when, in fact, such dismissals and rug sweepings have no precedent?

You mention "Avengers Disassembled." Wanda is still dealing with the fallout from that and what it led to ("House of M," "Decimation," etc.) and it recently got her killed by a teammate.

Why do you have such opposition to comics exploring anything more complicated than Villain A trying to do something inarguably bad while Hero B tries to stop them?

[Global Honored]

i consider black swan to be a "thinker" or at least a brilliant manipulator. i could deal without thanos silly generals and that alt terrax though. kick them out and add magneto, doom, and shuri panther. that would be an awesome cabal.

Yes, from what we have seen Swan certainly has the gift to influence men's minds and actions. I realize Thanos and Terrax are also in play but watch out b/c she is going to be a force to deal with. Both against the Cabal and within their ranks.

[Punisher007]

You know it's really sad that I'm actually more supportive of a team with freaking Thanos on it than I am with the so-called "heroes." They've been THAT arrogant, stupid, and ineffectual.

[Vic Vega]

@TresDias: Yeah, I know Thanos' motivations have evolved quite a bit since the early days.

But Thanos as morally pragmatic antihero is pretty much just a Starlin concept so I'm ignoring it since Hickman's
Thanos doesn't seem like the same guy at all.

[Knight of DC]

You know the gripe I had with this. An admittedly minor gripe: I wish we actually saw Black Bolt thinking about his wife and son before the End. Yeah, that's probably what was going on in that page, but wish it was more detailed.

Other than that, I loved this issue and I love this book. It's not a happy book. This is not a book about a superhero team that is also a family and I appreciate that. I'm glad that there are books like Mighty Avengers and this in the same universe.