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  1. #16
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    This has been the direction Namor's been heading since 2008 writers have just been dragging their feet getting here. Compared to how he's been written over the last 6 years or so not a big deal or big change. Compared to how he was written 10 years ago or more this is a pretty substantial change. But than again you could say that about a few other Marvel characters in the last 6 to 8 years. Still don't really care for this premiss, but just curious how Hickman's going to resolve this.
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  2. #17
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    Good issue.

    But the Illuminati really need to get it together. Such sad disgraceful behavior within the nature of "rolling over to die" ,it is amazing that we had so many issues of a character in particular stating he would do what needed to be done only for him to buckle when the time came. If not for Namor the rest of them would not get the chance to correct their fatal mistake. They really need to get their crap together before the next incursion.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    I still don't really see this as a heel turn. I read it as Namor giving up everything for the sake of survival. I just loved the look on Reed's face when he realizes what Black Bolt asked.

    This just makes the wait for September's issue even longer to see what happens in the time skip.
    Namor doing what is necessary is one thing, that's understandable.

    Joining Thanos (and gang) and going on a slaughter spree on the world is another thing, that's why I said his heel turn is complete.
    Last edited by Username taken; 08-20-2014 at 07:32 AM.

  4. #19
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Global Honored View Post
    Absolutely. When Hickman (I believe it was JH anyway) said that New Avengers was going to be the most important book Marvel publishes, he wasn't joking.
    Absolutely not. They certainly had culpability in what they were party to; however, they aren't responsible for the choices an adult makes on his own accord seperate from the group. That's crazy.

    This would be like saying that a business is responsible for a person that went on a rampage after getting fired. Is there a link? Sure. But they didn't force the person to make any type of decision regarding what they do afterward.

    Edit: After rereading your comment I'm not sure if I interpretted your agreement corectly. Are you saying that the rest of the Illuminati bear responsibility for Namor's current actions?
    Last edited by KOSLOX; 08-20-2014 at 07:38 AM.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    I'll grant the argument last time Namor's action were borne from necessity and inaction on the part of the others, but active slaughter is his choice and his choice alone. This is like stage two preconventional morality.
    But isn't this inaction from the others again? And yes, going on the planet to kill everyone before destroying the world is something else and Namor bears guilt for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Namor doing what is necessary is one thing, that's understandable.

    Joining Thanos (and gang) and going on a slaughter spree on the world is another thing, that's why I said his heel turn is complete.
    Sacrificing everything for the sake of survival does not automatically equate to a heel. We'll just disagree on that point.

  6. #21
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    But isn't this inaction from the others again? And yes, going on the planet to kill everyone before destroying the world is something else and Namor bears guilt for that.



    Sacrificing everything for the sake of survival does not automatically equate to a heel. We'll just disagree on that point.
    Definitely, I'm just saying at this point they only bear responsibility for issue #21. From here on out though namor actions valiant or villianous are his own and will bear the consequence on his own.
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Global Honored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Absolutely not. They certainly had culpability in what they were party to; however, they aren't responsible for the choices an adult makes on his own accord seperate from the group. That's crazy.

    This would be like saying that a business is responsible for a person that went on a rampage after getting fired. Is there a link? Sure. But they didn't force the person to make any type of decision regarding what they do afterward.
    I think they are culpable. Indirectly perhaps but how did this new Cabal get together? The Illuminati had a hand in each of these being in such a position to combine and destroy worlds. Black Bolt's trust of Maximus. Obviously Namor's inclusion and eventual expulsion. The Illuminati giving the Black Swan so much freedom/influence, and then "imprisoning" them all together in one place. Yikes. Obviously the Cabal are making their own choices but those are possible because of sins and missteps of the Illuminati.

    I don't think we disagree. The Cabal are the ones doing the planet killing now, certainly. But the Illuminati now realize they have the responsibility to stop them, or find a different way, they are the only men on Earth who know what is going on and that Thanos and co. are on the loose. It is their responsibility to put out their own fires or find help doing so, which won't come easy.

  8. #23
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    But isn't this inaction from the others again? And yes, going on the planet to kill everyone before destroying the world is something else and Namor bears guilt for that.



    Sacrificing everything for the sake of survival does not automatically equate to a heel. We'll just disagree on that point.
    Sacrificing no, however once he starts engaging in proactive murder as a first resort it becomes really, really difficult to make a case that his actions have any nobility attached.

    Side note: When does the Invaders issue about Nuremberg come out. I'm very interested to see what his take on that is in comparisson with how he's been portrayed on and off.
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  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Absolutely not. They certainly had culpability in what they were party to; however, they aren't responsible for the choices an adult makes on his own accord seperate from the group. That's crazy.

    This would be like saying that a business is responsible for a person that went on a rampage after getting fired. Is there a link? Sure. But they didn't force the person to make any type of decision regarding what they do afterward.

    Edit: After rereading your comment I'm not sure if I interpretted your agreement corectly. Are you saying that the rest of the Illuminati bear responsibility for Namor's current actions?
    I would say that the Illuminati's actions in terms of the prisoners and the secrecy created the situation we saw at the end of the issue. Did their actions lead to Namor's decision? Absolutely but it was his own choice since he saw the others giving up and he refused to do that. It's like how even though Namor used the bomb all the Illuminati share responsibility for that since they were actively involved in the making of the bomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Definitely, I'm just saying at this point they only bear responsibility for issue #21. From here on out though namor actions valiant or villianous are his own and will bear the consequence on his own.
    The Illuminati's actions created this situation is what they are guilty of. Only up to that point however.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    But isn't this inaction from the others again? And yes, going on the planet to kill everyone before destroying the world is something else and Namor bears guilt for that.



    Sacrificing everything for the sake of survival does not automatically equate to a heel. We'll just disagree on that point.
    We'll just agree to disagree.

    There's not a single reason for the Cabal to fly into the alternate Earth and slaugther innocents.

    I know Thanos and his guys live for the slaughter but I just don't understand why Namor will go along with that.

    Namor's actions now are just too far in villain territory for me now.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Sacrificing no, however once he starts engaging in proactive murder as a first resort it becomes really, really difficult to make a case that his actions have any nobility attached.
    My thoughts exactly.

    It seemed that the Cabal was enjoying the slaughter and that's what I have a problem with.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Sacrificing no, however once he starts engaging in proactive murder as a first resort it becomes really, really difficult to make a case that his actions have any nobility attached.

    Side note: When does the Invaders issue about Nuremberg come out. I'm very interested to see what his take on that is in comparisson with how he's been portrayed on and off.
    NA has talked about how sometimes in order to survive, you must sacrifice anything. I have not attached any nobility to what's he done although you could make an argument for and against that.

    For Invaders, I think it may be after November but not sure.

  13. #28
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Global Honored View Post
    I think they are culpable. Indirectly perhaps but how did this new Cabal get together? The Illuminati had a hand in each of these being in such a position to combine and destroy worlds. Black Bolt's trust of Maximus. Obviously Namor's inclusion and eventual expulsion. The Illuminati giving the Black Swan so much freedom/influence, and then "imprisoning" them all together in one place. Yikes. Obviously the Cabal are making their own choices but those are possible because of sins and missteps of the Illuminati.
    Wait, what? In real life if a prison break happened and a group of criminals killed people would you say the warden is indirectly responsible for murder?

    I can agree that it would show a level of incomptence regarding security but that's about as far as it goes.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    The Illuminati's actions created this situation is what they are guilty of. Only up to that point however.
    I guess I can agree with this. I won't argue that there wasn't a high level of incompetence with how they detained their prisoners. Especially Thanos since he was a global problem that wasn't limited to the illuminati's dealings. He was fighting the Avengers straight up and should have been in their custody.
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  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    I guess I can agree with this. I won't argue that there wasn't a high level of incompetence with how they detained their prisoners. Especially Thanos since he was a global problem that wasn't limited to the illuminati's dealings. He was fighting the Avengers straight up and should have been in their custody.
    Just think of what Steve will say when he connects the dots. "Wait a minute. Tony told me he'd have Thanos secured..."

    Side note, how about Valerie's line to Reed. Great moment however depressing it was at the same time.
    Last edited by Mahes; 08-20-2014 at 07:53 AM. Reason: added Valerie

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