New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[hawkeyefan]

I know that. They still used their IG equivalent in the context of an incursion. Creating a duplicate Earth and moving people there - not during an incursion - would fall under normal, in-universe IG use and there is no reason to assume it would shatter the gems.

We haven't observed that, though, Shao. For all we know, Incursion status is always "on," but only observable during those final eight hours. All we know is that any attempts to use Infinity Gems have resulted in them shattering.

To assume your position so strongly, we may as well assume the Living Tribunal should be able to manifest outside that eight-hour window, even though it was during such "downtime" his corpse was found.

Per Captain Universe, the "universe is broken". She has obviously been affected by whatever has happened, and the Living Tribunal was as well. It wouldn't be a stretch for the Infinity Gems to be similarly affected.

[ShaokhaN]

We haven't observed that, though, Shao. For all we know, Incursion status is always "on," but only observable during those final eight hours. All we know is that any attempts to use Infinity Gems have resulted in them shattering.

To assume your position so strongly, we may as well assume the Living Tribunal should be able to manifest outside that eight-hour window, even though it was during such "downtime" his corpse was found.

My position is simply that there is zero evidence that the IG would shatter if used in a normal in-universe situation unrelated to (and not during) the incursions. That there is no evidence supporting this hypothesis is a fact, not an assumption or an opinion. Is it possible it would still shatter? Sure, but we have so far seen nothing to suggest anything of the sort. The two instances we've been shown/told about the infinity gems shattering have taken place in an actual incursion context, and everything suggests that it is precisely because it happened in an incursion phase that the gems shattered (see also Black Swan's comments about the gems' limitations in NA #3). Still, I do not disagree with you that it is possible it would shatter.

[TakoM]

Where did we see the Living Tribunal?

[TresDias]

Refresh my memory about what Black Swan said. I don't have the issue in front of me.

Anywho, you are assuming here, bud. Just as I would be assuming if I said the Gems would definitely shatter if used outside that eight-hour window. All we can say for sure is that the Gems have shattered each time they were used following the start of this whole Incursion business, and that the universe (multiverse, really) is broken.

Your argument was that the Gems were used poorly, but since the Illuminati had no idea that this would happen to them, and since they had no reason to attempt the use of the Gems until during an Incursion (same with the Great Society), you can't really hold that one against them.

Clearly, going the Infinity Gems route was not meant to be a viable solution for this story. Even if the Gems would be safe outside that eight-hour window, no one in any of the universes is going to have a reason to try using their Gems until during an Incursion, so they're going to lose them anyway.

[TakoM]

Refresh my memory about what Black Swan said. I don't have the issue in front of me.

Anywho, you are assuming here, bud. Just as I would be assuming if I said the Gems would definitely shatter if used outside that eight-hour window. All we can say for sure is that the Gems have shattered each time they were used following the start of this whole Incursion business, and that the universe (multiverse, really) is broken.

Your argument was that the Gems were used poorly, but since the Illuminati had no idea that this would happen to them, and since they had no reason to attempt the use of the Gems until during an Incursion (same with the Great Society), you can't really hold that one against them.

Clearly, going the Infinity Gems route was not meant to be a viable solution for this story. Even if the Gems would be safe outside that eight-hour window, no one in any of the universes is going to have a reason to try using their Gems until during an Incursion, so they're going to lose them anyway.

I think too that you could move your own earth safely the reason why they shattered was that they wanted to move something inside another universe when the universe were overlapping which is not inside its operation parameter. I think Adam Warlock or Thanos would had griped the situation instantly and switched their tactic before it was to late.

[hawkeyefan]

Where did we see the Living Tribunal?

Back a ways....maybe issue 8 or so? The Watcher brought Iron Man to some barren moon or planet and the LT was lying on the surface as if dead or inert.

[ShaokhaN]

Refresh my memory about what Black Swan said. I don't have the issue in front of me.

She said "The stones will not work outside their native universe, so they have limitations. But the stones will buy you time".

Anywho, you are assuming here, bud. Just as I would be assuming if I said the Gems would definitely shatter if used outside that eight-hour window. All we can say for sure is that the Gems have shattered each time they were used following the start of this whole Incursion business, and that the universe (multiverse, really) is broken.

The statement "there is zero actual evidence that the IG would shatter if used in a normal in-universe situation unrelated to (and not during) the incursions" is a fact, not an assumption. All we can say for sure is that the gems have shattered each time they were used in the context of an incursion, to end the incursion without destroying the Earth. Again, it is possible that they would have shattered even if they had been used in-universe, outside of the context of an incursion, but we have not seen anything to suggest this.

Your argument was that the Gems were used poorly, but since the Illuminati had no idea that this would happen to them, and since they had no reason to attempt the use of the Gems until during an Incursion (same with the Great Society), you can't really hold that one against them.

I'm not really holding it against them - at that point the Black Swan hadn't even confirmed that evacuating the Earth and destroying it would stop the incursions. From the point of view of the reader, however, we know that using the gems to replace and evacuate the Earth would have been a better use of the gems.

Clearly, going the Infinity Gems route was not meant to be a viable solution for this story. Even if the Gems would be safe outside that eight-hour window, no one in any of the universes is going to have a reason to try using their Gems until during an Incursion, so they're going to lose them anyway.

Hickman made it so that direct use of the gems against an incursion was not a solution, but since he put the evacuation + destruction of the Earth option on the table to solve the incursion problem, as readers we can consider this could probably have been done easily with the IG :-)

[ShaokhaN]

By the way, I'll add it to my list of still dangling plot threads as soon as I find the right issue number (it must have been around NA #5 but I don't have my issues with me right now), but Black Swan mentioned earlier that there were, if I remember correctly, at least eight ways of dealing with the incursion problem, the Earth's evacuation and destruction being the 8th (?). Reed then asked her to proceed explaining what the other solutions were, but they were interrupted by T'Challa who said he had a problem with her since he saw her destroy a world. They never got back to asking what the frigging seven other solutions (minimum) were... It's frankly pretty strange that this has not been addressed in any way since then. I suppose at least one of the other solutions is the use of a universe's infinity gems equivalent, even if that's only a temporary solution, but I'm guessing there are at least a couple of other things on that list that we haven't seen tried yet.

[Ciriaco]

By the way, I'll add it to my list of still dangling plot threads as soon as I find the right issue number (it must have been around NA #5 but I don't have my issues with me right now), but Black Swan mentioned earlier that there were, if I remember correctly, at least eight ways of dealing with the incursion problem, the Earth's evacuation and destruction being the 8th (?). Reed then asked her to proceed explaining what the other solutions were, but they were interrupted by T'Challa who said he had a problem with her since he saw her destroy a world. They never got back to asking what the frigging seven other solutions (minimum) were... It's frankly pretty strange that this has not been addressed in any way since then. I suppose at least one of the other solutions is the use of a universe's infinity gems equivalent, even if that's only a temporary solution, but I'm guessing there are at least a couple of other things on that list that we haven't seen tried yet.

The mentioning of the different ways was in #5 (I always carry all my comics with me, takes almost no place at all!).

I don't know if this is as much of a dangling plot thread but there are some things with Black Swan I hope still will be explored. In #15 the other Black Swans brings our Swan back to her home-world while the Black Priests are still there. She races to her dead brother and extracts something from his blood, why?

The Priests also get hold of the key to unlock the Multiverse Library, we haven't seen that revisited yet have we?

And lastly, in #16 T'Challa notes that planets are not destroyed simultaneously during an incursion. It could have been just techno-babble, or is it a clue of sorts?

[jackolover]

[FONT=georgia]Well, according to Reed, the GS moved their Earth out of phase, and didn't "push" the other either away like they did.

It's interesting that the Earth can be phased out of the way of an Incursion, because somebody deliberately sent a planet on a collision course to Earth-616, so that Rogue planet had to be phased into the Earth. That may just negate the phase capability of Earth-616. If that is the case, then whoever sent that Rogue planet, did it deliberately so the Earth couldn't use the phase solution.

[TakoM]

Back a ways....maybe issue 8 or so? The Watcher brought Iron Man to some barren moon or planet and the LT was lying on the surface as if dead or inert.

Yeah but it was never explained what happened their and the Living Tribunal is really a strong guy.....and at the same time Ironman fought another cosmic threat. It's not of the table that maybe the authors misunderstood each other or done some changed at last minute.

[ShaokhaN]

The mentioning of the different ways was in #5 (I always carry all my comics with me, takes almost no place at all!).

I don't know if this is as much of a dangling plot thread but there are some things with Black Swan I hope still will be explored. In #15 the other Black Swans brings our Swan back to her home-world while the Black Priests are still there. She races to her dead brother and extracts something from his blood, why?

The Priests also get hold of the key to unlock the Multiverse Library, we haven't seen that revisited yet have we?

And lastly, in #16 T'Challa notes that planets are not destroyed simultaneously during an incursion. It could have been just techno-babble, or is it a clue of sorts?

Thanks, added!

[hawkeyefan]

Yeah but it was never explained what happened their and the Living Tribunal is really a strong guy.....and at the same time Ironman fought another cosmic threat. It's not of the table that maybe the authors misunderstood each other or done some changed at last minute.

You're right, it was never explained outright. I took it to mean that whatever has happened to the multiverse has messed things up so bad that the Living Tribunal can't act. He's just as messed up or broken as the universe is. I also took it to mean that there won't be some grand cosmic entity showing up at the end of the story to wave the problem away.

I don't know if that's right, but that's how I interpreted it.

[brainwasher]

Captain Britain is another obvious choice, and likely who was contacted in issue #8. He's enough outside the typical flow of things to have probably been able to see the necessity in keeping things relatively on the down low.

Beyond those two, though, it's hard to think of many minds worth contacting.

One of my guesses when the issue came out was ex nihilo to terraform another planet for humanity in case they were forced to destroy their.

[Ciriaco]

One of my guesses when the issue came out was ex nihilo to terraform another planet for humanity in case they were forced to destroy their.

That would indeed have been a smart move. However, given Reeds comment that "He'll do the job well. As well as either of us would." I don't think it's him. Neither Reed nor Tony could to what Ex Nihilo can.