New Avengers #23 (spoilers)

[Moose100]

Doom would have to be getting involved sooner or later I would hope..

[KOSLOX]

Right, there will be other cars coming for the one that made it. BUT, at least the universe of the one that didn't will be home free as there will be no more cars coming there.

So the longer they can keep it up, the more universes they save even if their own might not make it in the end. Seems like a worthwhile endeavor to me. Even at the cost of your soul if you have one.

But at some point you're no better than what you are fighting against.

if we assume this happens every 8 hours for the next 8 months the cabal will have killed roughly 5040000000000 people (assuming each earth inhabited at roughly the same level ours is.)

Sure they'd have saved an exponential amount more but at that point we're viewing people solely as numbers... and that is totally ####ed up.

[MichaelAngel0]

The driver would be the cause of the incursions. Unless you're claiming that this latest Earth caused all this and now they're in the clear.

No I was looking at it as if the car was the other Earth that is charging at them. I saw it differently.

However, if you're one of those people saying that they should evacuate Earth, that's the equivalent to stepping aside and letting said car hit an unsuspecting person, who you know is gonna be put in the same situation and could be killed. That's not any better.

Right, but that doesn't stop the car so you have to keep doing it.

Still better than letting the city/country blow up.

Being the characters that we have been reading about for decades we have to assume they have tried to find solutions. Hickman has not shown them mentioning that, but I respect their history enough to believe that they have and have simply failed to find a solution. I believe that Hickman is going to destroy everything at the end of this story. And how these characters react to their end is what the whole comic is all about. You can use the story of whatever king it was who went out into the ocean and tried to fight it with his sword, I believe. Insanity. Destroying another world is just another wave with one directly behind it. It is so obvious to me. Is there anyone else who sees this? The end of everything is a forgone conclusion stated somewhere in almost every issue. If what some posters who are familiar with Hickman's writing are correct, he does not bluff. So swinging a sword at the next wave and the next and the next is eventually going to wear even Thanos out. He will probably realize this once he is more familiar with the situation. There is no escape for any of these characters and some have the wisdom to bow to the inevitable. Of course we all know some plot device will save it all. Hickman is just showing what these characters are made of when it comes to their own personal end. What, he wondered, will these characters do in the face of their actual death.

Again, Hickman has shown them try to figure out of other solutions. In fact, he alluded to another possible solution in Avengers #24...just that Tony probably hasn't realized it, yet.

[AcesX1X]

how are we as readers ever suppose to respect these so-called heroes again? they have completely failed in their incompetence in every single conceivable way.

[DrTraveler]

On the one hand, I see Hickman's Namor throwing in with the Cabal, as it is called. On the other hand, I see Robinson's Namor in All New Invaders taking a break from Incursions to be chummy with his comrades and do some clean-cut heroism. Hickman's had to integrate Robinson's work into his twice this issue, what with Reed and Sue meeting Val with Doom in Latveria. Won't take long before he learns of the incursions I bet.

This has been a repeated problem for Hickman though. His other Marvel works were mostly self contained characters, while the cast of New Avengers (and Avengers) are subject to the whims of other editorial and writing teams. I can imagine for him it's a bit frustrating. At least part of the 8 months later time jump has to be motivated by this.

As for the issue itself, it was fairly awesome. I am curious what Dr. Strange was up to. I wasn't sure if he was planning to stop the Incursion himself (which I believe he can at this point) or if he was fleeing this plane of existence. It was even stranger no one noticed he wasn't there, they'd just all focused on Namor.

[yet another]

But at some point you're no better than what you are fighting against.

If that's the price you have to pay for the sake of everyone else, then so be it.

if we assume this happens every 8 hours for the next 8 months the cabal will have killed roughly 5040000000000 people (assuming each earth inhabited at roughly the same level ours is.)

They will die anyway if the Cabal does nothing so it makes no real difference. Except that the other earth and both universes get to go on.

[Mark]

how are we as readers ever suppose to respect these so-called heroes again? they have completely failed in their incompetence in every single conceivable way.

They've succeeded at murder. It can't be just anyone who could have murdered the heroes of the last world. I'm sure at marvel that's something to be proud of.

[Tony Stark]

how are we as readers ever suppose to respect these so-called heroes again? they have completely failed in their incompetence in every single conceivable way.

Well the blood is on their hands for blowing up the last planet, but I don't get the just giving in either.

[yet another]

how are we as readers ever suppose to respect these so-called heroes again? they have completely failed in their incompetence in every single conceivable way.

Yep, it will be quite interesting to see if he manages to redeem them, and if so how. He has quite some work ahead!

[AcesX1X]

doctor doom felt like a stand-in for the readership. calling reed richards impotent in front of his daughter.

[KOSLOX]

If that's the price you have to pay for the sake of everyone else, then so be it.



They will die anyway if the Cabal does nothing so it makes no real difference. Except that the other earth and both universes get to go on.

The difference is that the Cabal (based on it's members) aren't going to make the effort to stop the cycle. They're just another cog in the murder machine at that point rather than agents fighting against it.

[AcesX1X]

The difference is that the Cabal (based on it's members) aren't going to make the effort to stop the cycle. They're just another cog in the murder machine at that point rather than agents fighting against it.

at least they are doing something

[KOSLOX]

Well the blood is on their hands for blowing up the last planet, but I don't get the just giving in either.

It's hopelessness. They can't be what "the wheel" wants of them and all their intellect has failed them. It's easy to understand why they would give up.

[Mark]

Yep, it will be quite interesting to see if he manages to redeem them, and if so how. He has quite some work ahead!

Does he have any interest or intention to redeem them?

[yet another]

The difference is that the Cabal (based on it's members) aren't going to make the effort to stop the cycle. They're just another cog in the murder machine at that point rather than agents fighting against it.

That's true, but they will leave a host of "permanently" (from this threat at least) saved universes behind them so that ought to count for something.

It might also be the case that them stepping up here will give others (likely the Illuminati) a chance to find a more complete solution. Which would be hard to do when everyone is dead.