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  1. #91
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why would that make him more pragmatic than her?

    Rucka and Perez alone disprove this.
    Clark growing up around these people means that he understands them a little better and sees that somethings just won't work for them. He also went through the pain of their squables and stubbornness so he probably would be more used to limiting his desires for the nuances of actual change. I think

    All characters have to make pragmatic decisions at some point. Doesn't mean their defining features should be pragmatism. In fact, I don't think she could be considered a pragmatist in most of her solo stories, only when acompanied by Superman and Batman. And even then, if you set the general rule of pragmatism for her against those two, then you aren't really thinking about the nuances of the character, because I don't think she would pragmatic when it comes to just pretending that something didn't happen, or hiding a shameful truth.
    Last edited by Alpha; 01-14-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Not exactly. Kryptonite ring only affects kryptonians. Clark doesn't think Batman should have control over Brothereye for any purpose whatsoever. It's a technology that can be used against much more than just kryptonians. Clark would be against Bruce having control over Brother Eye whereas Diana would accept it begrudgingly. I don't know how far Clark would act, would he destroy brother eye? Would he force Bruce to give up it's control? I would only know the answer once I started writing the story.
    In this scenario, it's meant to serve as an anti-Kryptonian invasion device. We could give it another name so as not to be associated with a previous storyline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yes, and that's literally the point of that storyline. It's testing the values of each character. So the consequences of this story would be that Diana sacrificied the trust of the U.N. in order to resolve a crisis outside her jurisdiction. It's a game changing moment for her, which doesn't mean she is acting out of character.
    But, given your response, if Batman is absent from the story, that's not a decision she'd make. Her viewpoint is reactive to someone else not active on its own principles, but it would be an interesting story for her to deal with lost trust or faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I told you the reasoning for each decision. You can't then tell me that wonder woman is used as tie breaker, because I don't agree that she fits in a spectrum between Batman and Superman. She has values and defining features that neither of them have. I also think Diana would only be swayed to break into the country once Batman tells them he is going in. Not because she does everything that Batman tells her to, but because she sees someone taking the initiative by themselves and that's what she wants to do to. Seeing someone else do it, specially someone as vulnerable as Bruce, isn't good enough for her. But if Bruce or anyone else, didn't go I think she would be somewhat pacified into staying away.
    In this scenario response, she's less active than the other two, making decisions that are reactive to another hero/follow someone else's lead. That's not really "lead character" stuff. Her fans don't want her to be second fiddle.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-14-2021 at 03:29 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    DC already has Superman-- Why do they need two?
    Well, they've got a bunch of actual Supermen, plus a bunch more Superman types who are actually Kryptonian or Daxamite, but to your point...while those words may describe both Diana and Clark, Diana is most definitely not Superman. They share a few similarities IMO, such as both being good people with heroic tendencies. That said, as the point of this thread goes, they are still quite different people with different world views and methods. For me at least, Diana is wise, kind and forgiving, not some sort of vengeance oriented anti-hero who wields a sword. For me, she uses the lasso; thematically, both in the bondage motifs her creator was so fond of, and in terms of a non-lethal weapon which has the usual powers to boot, and her other traditional kit.

  4. #94
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    In this scenario, it's meant to serve as an anti-Kryptonian invasion device. We could give it another name so as not to be associated with a previous storyline.
    well how the hell do I know how he would react then? It depends on the device. If it's a button that just instantly destroys every single kryptonian he would absolutely be against Batman having that device. Who would he give it to? Don't know. Maybe Lois. Maybe Jimmy Olsen. Maybe Diana. Maybe Barry Allen. Don't know. If it's a device that depowers all kryptonians instantly, well maybe he would allow Batman to have it. I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    But, given your response, if Batman is absent from the story, that's not a decision she'd make. Her viewpoint is reactive to someone else not active on its own principles, but it would be an interesting story for her to deal with lost trust or faith.
    Yes, sometimes these characters need someone else's incentive to make a choice they wouldn't make otherwise. I don't see the issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    In this scenario response, she's less active than the other two, making decisions that are reactive to another hero/follow someone else's lead. That's not really "lead character" stuff. Her fans don't want her to be second fiddle.
    Her fans? I'm one of those fans. And yes some people would piss and moan over this because they feel insecure about the characters they like. I like the nuance of Diana, I don't want a fetishized OP character who is always right and every other hero in the world does what she tells them to. No, I don't want that. I want a real person imbued in those stories.


    But you want a story where Batman doesn't know what to do and everyone else does? I'll give you one. Darkseid decides he wants to destroy the whole universe. He has planted a giant egg inside the planet earth and when it spawns it will spread a virus and immediately let out 10 000 kryptonite laced doomsday-parademons with yellow power rings. They will attack everyone on earth and either kill them or turn them into a copy of them with all those powers and their brain will be destroyed and replaced by a cybernetic brain controlled by Darkseid. If they succeed in destroying her and accumulate numbers of copies from the millions now dead, they will move on to the rest of the universe.

    The Spectre transports Batman WonderWoman and Superman to a limbo dimension and tells them all of this. He gives them a button that they can press to make earth immediately explode and stop Darkseid's plan, and maybe even kill Darkseid himself. They have 24 hours to think about this and decide what to do. If they decide not to do anything after those 24 hours then the egg will immediately spawn and they won't have time to transport everyone on the planet away from earth. They will have to stay there and try to fight to defeat the threat, with little hope, and the button will be gone.

    They are all appalled and they cry over this crisis. They panic and implode of sadness and desperation. After those 24 hours Clark decides that the only home he's ever known is Earth. He came from a planet that also exploded. He came to earth and was able to do so much. But there are millions of worlds out there just like when krypton exploded, he can't put the rest of the universe in danger for his home. He wants to press the button.

    Wonder Woman is heartbroken thinking of everything that will happen to their planet when the egg spawns. But she has known two homes. One was Themyscira, a beautiful paradise full of her sisters. The other was Man's world, a very complicated place, frustating at times, but one that made her into a whole different person and allowed her to discover so many things she loved. She doesn't want to live anywhere else and she can't let all of the people she knows die. She wants to die fighting with her people for the hope of victory. She decides not to press the button.

    Then comes Batman. All he's ever known was the mission. He would go at any length to finish the mission. But the thing is that he isn't an alien. He is human. He doesn't know the rest of the universe, only earth, only his kind, human beings. Most of them don't have any special powers. They needed to be protect by him. And now he's just going to abandon them and let them die? For the sake of far away planets? Just give up? But at the same time, he did all of this for justice. So that others could live safely. Those other planets are gonna suffer also. Yes he may not know them, but they are owed the same security he tried to give to Gotham. Could earth have a chance of fighting this huge army? OH god I don't know what to do!!!! Bruce is stuck, unable to make a decision even after 24 hours. Would one of the others heroes convince him? Probably. He wouldn't be able to make the choice himself
    Last edited by Alpha; 01-14-2021 at 06:28 PM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Superman wasn't in her movie, so there's nothing to contrast against. If Wonder Woman remains a solo character in her own Superman-less bubble going forward, that's not a problem. It's basically like giving Peter Parker and Miles Morales the same personality.
    Superman isn't a Wonder Woman character and is normally not going to be showing up in her book or movies. Regardless, we have established that Diana being similar to Superman is not a problem.


    By default, there are more ways to deviate from the mold than there are ways to adhere to it.
    I disagree. There's equal amount of limitations.

    The only time she's written comically is when she's a fish out of water, and people have a problem with that.
    She was a fish out of water in the movie and no one had a problem with that. The only time people have taken issue with her being a fish out of water is when it is handled in a shallow, immature way like in the New 52 movies or when it ignored that she had been in man's world for a long time like in post-Infinite Crisis.

    I think they'd have the same problem if she were a jokester.
    I think you'd be wrong and I can point to portrayals of Wonder Woman that were depicted with a sense of humor that fans did not hate. Again, it comes down to execution.

    She isn't shown to have unique hobbies or interests that would really differentiate her identity, like Flash and Green Lantern being comic book nerds.
    Certainly not due to resistance from fans.




    It came up in the DC Comics forum on DCAU Hawkgirl and Wonder Woman. Besides being magic and Wonder Woman specific, it's not like you can't tell the same stories with other rogues. A rogue's gallery alone isn't enough to make a character really stand out. Flash's, Hawkgirl's, and Green Lantern's villains were less prominent than Wonder Woman's in the DCAU and those characters were still all better received.

    Most kids who watched the show didn't know whose villains were whose. I doubt many kids knew who's villain Grodd was or the Shade's was.
    Because the DCAU either ignored the dynamic they had with Diana or created ones that didn't exist in the first place. Circe is a lot more sinister than someone who wanted to make Batman sing, Cheetah never even interacted with Diana and her origin was completely different from anyone we had in the comics and Giganta was more of a lackey for Grodd. Hell, they made Hades a WW villain which he isn't in the comics and is just another example of western media conflating Hades with Satan. In the comics, Circe, Cheetah and Ares all have years

    Kids didn't know Grodd was a Flash villain because he didn't have an animated series dedicated to exploring the character and his villains like Superman and Batman did.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-14-2021 at 04:40 PM.

  6. #96
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why would that make him more pragmatic than her?
    I don't think either one would be more or less pragmatic or idealistic than the other. They are both of those things in different ways.

    I think labeling each of them as one or the other is too simplistic and doesn't really fit the larger histories of either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Rucka and Perez alone disprove this.
    I agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is a shallow reading of Xena's character in the first place. Her main story arc was atoning for her crimes as a brutal warlord and she showed several times to be a compassionate person not unlike Wonder Woman herself. Killing a villain is not inherently a heroic action and even saving someone can end up screwing someone else over if the person saved is a villain.
    To be fair, Xena still slides back into her old brutal ways in some instances and kind of needs Gabrielle around to keep her on track at times. Her still killing opponents in combat can still be hand waved as her still not being a superhuman on Diana's level so she needs to do it for pragmatic reasons more.

    But yes, it is an overall shallow reading of Xena more so than Diana. Because the bad ways they've written Diana do not really match Xena. Xena's actually a well written character, whereas Flanderized Diana is just crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think it says something that of all the legal and ethical lines superheroes frequently cross, it's only when it results in the death of a villain (and particularly evil villain at that), that fans suddenly demand consequences and follow up. The multiple instances of Batman abusing his wards or torturing opponents, Superman's defrauding of a newspaper and gaslighting his love interests, Diana's subverting people's free will with the lasso, these are either forgotten, ignored or just accepted as part of the genre. But killing Turbo Hitler is where we draw the line.
    Not all fans of Batman who want him to stick to the no kill thing are also okay with that other stuff. It is usually all lumped together as being a poor direction for the character and his mythos.

    The lasso hasn't had the mind control powers in a long ass time, and the gaslighting was dialed back even in the Bronze Age and hasn't been full canon again in a while even if Clark having a secret identity is still present. Those things aren't really high on many people's priority list to defend or be alright with if they don't want superheroes killing. Especially as it is pretty much the only genre that does that.

  7. #97
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    This is a basic attempt at gathering and summarizing:


    Screen Shot 2021-01-14 at 9.52.32 PM.jpg

    The middle part is practically unreadable, but I put

    Idealistic/Optimistic
    Hesitant to Kill
    Partially Loyal to a Non-Human Civilization
    Leaders
    Believe in Redemption

  8. #98
    Been lurking since '08 Marik Swift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I mean, I can see why Diana would find some fun in the strangeness and creativity of somr cuss words, but i don't think she would cuss just to seem edgier and powerful.
    But expand a little bit on your interpretation of the character. I'm curious.
    Lol, sorry, didn't mean like she would cuss just for the sake of it. Mean that the Amazon's are definitely very free spirited, and I see them as loving partying, drinking, sensual and speaking bluntly. Diana would be no different and given that she's generally "the best of the Amazon's", I imagine she does those things just the same even more.

  9. #99
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Clark is an idealist, Diana is a pragmatist.
    Clark learns and wants to be an idealist.He strives to be it.His sky parents and earth parents want him to be more practical about things.Clark has a lot of contradiction due to it.Heck!it's the idealism that causes him to be more prone to conflicts and chaos.Diana becomes more pragmatic as she learns more about man's world.Diana on the other hand does always manage to contain situations.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-14-2021 at 10:27 PM.
    "People’s Dreams... Have No Ends"

  10. #100
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Lol, sorry, didn't mean like she would cuss just for the sake of it. Mean that the Amazon's are definitely very free spirited, and I see them as loving partying, drinking, sensual and speaking bluntly. Diana would be no different and given that she's generally "the best of the Amazon's", I imagine she does those things just the same even more.
    Yeah fair enough. Makes sense.

  11. #101
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Lol, sorry, didn't mean like she would cuss just for the sake of it. Mean that the Amazon's are definitely very free spirited, and I see them as loving partying, drinking, sensual and speaking bluntly. Diana would be no different and given that she's generally "the best of the Amazon's", I imagine she does those things just the same even more.
    That's interesting. I imagine that the cuss words she uses don't directly translate though. Maybe something like:

    "Cerberus' balls!"

    "Sweet teats of Aphrodite!!"

    "Drink deeply of my milk!"

    "To Hades with you!"

    "Go lie with the Harpy!"

  12. #102
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Haha not bad my dude

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    Not all fans of Batman who want him to stick to the no kill thing are also okay with that other stuff. It is usually all lumped together as being a poor direction for the character and his mythos.
    Batman killing can be justified depending on how it is done but abuse cannot. And I've seen plenty fans who hate Batman killing actually defend Bruce's abuse and his use of torture. A lot of comic book fans have some weird moral priorities to say the least.

    The lasso hasn't had the mind control powers in a long ass time
    Wait, what do you think making people tell the truth against their will is?

  14. #104
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman killing can be justified depending on how it is done but abuse cannot. And I've seen plenty fans who hate Batman killing actually defend Bruce's abuse and his use of torture. A lot of comic book fans have some weird moral priorities to say the least.



    Wait, what do you think making people tell the truth against their will is?
    There are versions of the lasso where people simply can't lie, but they aren't forced to talk.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Clark growing up around these people means that he understands them a little better and sees that somethings just won't work for them. He also went through the pain of their squables and stubbornness so he probably would be more used to limiting his desires for the nuances of actual change. I think

    All characters have to make pragmatic decisions at some point. Doesn't mean their defining features should be pragmatism. In fact, I don't think she could be considered a pragmatist in most of her solo stories, only when acompanied by Superman and Batman. And even then, if you set the general rule of pragmatism for her against those two, then you aren't really thinking about the nuances of the character, because I don't think she would pragmatic when it comes to just pretending that something didn't happen, or hiding a shameful truth.
    Diana has been a pragmatist since the 1980s, almost half her existence, if not more. If anything, ignoring her pragmatism robs her of nuance rather than adds to it. Being pragmatic also has nothing to do with pretending something didn't happen or hiding a shameful truth as a pragmatist would realize the value of honesty.

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