Personality-wise, how do you distinguish Wonder Woman and Superman?

[Alpha]

Diana has been a pragmatist since the 1980s, almost half her existence, if not more. If anything, ignoring her pragmatism robs her of nuance rather than adds to it. Being pragmatic also has nothing to do with pretending something didn't happen or hiding a shameful truth as a pragmatist would realize the value of honesty.

Let's put it this way, how would Diana react to the end of Watchmen?

[Alpha]

And irregardless, I simply don't think the idea of pragmatist as a defining feature makes sense. I don't think any of these characters should be considered non pragmatic. But at the end of the day they all have ideals that guide them, and all their decisions are dependant on those ideals.

[Alpha]

Saying that one of Wonder Woman's defining features is "pragmatist" Is like saying she is also defined by her "maturity". Who the hell is gonna care about a character because they are "mature"? Every character is supposed to be mature and pragmatist, bthe exceptions are the ones that need to be defined as idealist, not everyone else.

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman killing can be justified depending on how it is done but abuse cannot. And I've seen plenty fans who hate Batman killing actually defend Bruce's abuse and his use of torture. A lot of comic book fans have some weird moral priorities to say the least.

Of the two, abuse is indefensible under any circumstances. But just because we have some loud fans saying they don't want him to kill but are are ok with the other stuff doesn't mean everyone is. It's hard to properly gather statistics just from people being loud on the internet.

Ideally, Batman is first and foremost a character created to entertain kids. If they want to avoid killing opponents that is perfectly fine (same with most superheroes that are also marketed at kids), and they should absolutely avoid the other stuff as well. All of it contributes to DC just being really bad at Batman despite pushing him so much.

Wait, what do you think making people tell the truth against their will is?

My mistake, I thought you were referring only to the pre-Crisis lasso, which I know you don't view as favorably as the post-Crisis truth-only one.

[manwhohaseverything]

Batman killing can be justified depending on how it is done but abuse cannot. And I've seen plenty fans who hate Batman killing actually defend Bruce's abuse and his use of torture. A lot of comic book fans have some weird moral priorities to say the least.

You do realise,you are expecting morality to be of top priority in a narrative that is about vigilantism and lawlessness.Batman's a crazy jackass who is one step away from becoming a monster.That step is killing.You wouldn't like him if he were real.The only reason you or anyone likes him is cause he is fiction pulp character designed for entertainment and they have set up/written heroic qualities worth emulating in the dude.Also,if killing can be justified.then anything can.Playing poker with criminal won't get you answers.Torture is easy to justify.As if third degree tactics aren't used by many law enforcement wings around the world.

[the COMET]

You do realise,you are expecting morality to be of top priority in a narrative that is about vigilantism and lawlessness.Batman's a crazy jackass who is one step away from becoming a monster.That step is killing.You wouldn't like him if he were real.The only reason you or anyone likes him is cause he is fiction pulp character designed for entertainment.Also,if killing can be justified.then anything can.Playing poker with criminal won't get you answers.Torture is easy to justify.As if third degree tactics aren't used by many law enforcement wings around the world.

You got that right
Regarding Superman and Wonder Woman, they have pretty similar personalities and ideals. The difference is WW have no problem going berserk mode if needed, she's a life-long trained warrior, while Supes is more of a pacifist.

[achilles]

That's interesting. I imagine that the cuss words she uses don't directly translate though. Maybe something like:

"Cerberus' balls!"

"Sweet teats of Aphrodite!!"

"Drink deeply of my milk!"

"To Hades with you!"

"Go lie with the Harpy!"

At which point I imagine the character from Guardians of the Galaxy who responded to Starlord's introduction by saying "Who", would say something like "What?".

It would be a bit culturally specific it seems.

It could be a fun comedy scene. Considering modern Greek has quite a collection of such expressions, that list was probably on, but way too tame. They get way more raunchy than that. Maybe Diana could too. Clark OTOH, would blush like crazy hearing Diana talk like that...

[Ilan Preskovsky]

This is a basic attempt at gathering and summarizing:


Attachment 104807

The middle part is practically unreadable, but I put

Idealistic/Optimistic
Hesitant to Kill
Partially Loyal to a Non-Human Civilization
Leaders
Believe in Redemption

That's a pretty great summary.

[Alpha]

You got that right
Regarding Superman and Wonder Woman, they have pretty similar personalities and ideals. The difference is WW have no problem going berserk mode if needed, she's a life-long trained warrior, while Supes is more of a pacifist.

They have fairly different personalities. One is an introvert whereas the other is an extrovert and there are numerous other differences listed in this thread. They don't even have the same preocupations or strategies for resolving conflicts. People really are forcing this idea that they are similar because they focus on all the wrong aspects of each character.

[the COMET]

Yes i expressed myself badly, what i meant was they have the same ideals and stand for the same thing like peace, justice, love, all that crap.
On the personality side i agreed they are different giving the exemple of how Diana don't mind being over violent when needed without regret.

I also agree and really like this:

This is a basic attempt at gathering and summarizing:


Attachment 104807

The middle part is practically unreadable, but I put

Idealistic/Optimistic
Hesitant to Kill
Partially Loyal to a Non-Human Civilization
Leaders
Believe in Redemption

Although WW while being more talkative and maybe proactive, i don't think she's that extrovert. She's not an attention seeker for example.

[Alpha]

But you want a story where Batman doesn't know what to do and everyone else does? I'll give you one. Darkseid decides he wants to destroy the whole universe. He has planted a giant egg inside the planet earth and when it spawns it will spread a virus and immediately let out 10 000 kryptonite laced doomsday-parademons with yellow power rings. They will attack everyone on earth and either kill them or turn them into a copy of them with all those powers and their brain will be destroyed and replaced by a cybernetic brain controlled by Darkseid. If they succeed in destroying her and accumulate numbers of copies from the millions now dead, they will move on to the rest of the universe.

The Spectre transports Batman WonderWoman and Superman to a limbo dimension and tells them all of this. He gives them a button that they can press to make earth immediately explode and stop Darkseid's plan, and maybe even kill Darkseid himself. They have 24 hours to think about this and decide what to do. If they decide not to do anything after those 24 hours then the egg will immediately spawn and they won't have time to transport everyone on the planet away from earth. They will have to stay there and try to fight to defeat the threat, with little hope, and the button will be gone.

They are all appalled and they cry over this crisis. They panic and implode of sadness and desperation. After those 24 hours Clark decides that the only home he's ever known is Earth. He came from a planet that also exploded. He came to earth and was able to do so much. But there are millions of worlds out there just like when krypton exploded, he can't put the rest of the universe in danger for his home. He wants to press the button.

Wonder Woman is heartbroken thinking of everything that will happen to their planet when the egg spawns. But she has known two homes. One was Themyscira, a beautiful paradise full of her sisters. The other was Man's world, a very complicated place, frustating at times, but one that made her into a whole different person and allowed her to discover so many things she loved. She doesn't want to live anywhere else and she can't let all of the people she knows die. She wants to die fighting with her people for the hope of victory. She decides not to press the button.

Then comes Batman. All he's ever known was the mission. He would go at any length to finish the mission. But the thing is that he isn't an alien. He is human. He doesn't know the rest of the universe, only earth, only his kind, human beings. Most of them don't have any special powers. They needed to be protect by him. And now he's just going to abandon them and let them die? For the sake of far away planets? Just give up? But at the same time, he did all of this for justice. So that others could live safely. Those other planets are gonna suffer also. Yes he may not know them, but they are owed the same security he tried to give to Gotham. Could earth have a chance of fighting this huge army? OH god I don't know what to do!!!! Bruce is stuck, unable to make a decision even after 24 hours. Would one of the others heroes convince him? Probably. He wouldn't be able to make the choice himself

This might've been confusing. I was just trying to show that Batman's biggest fragility is that he will go at any lengths to reach his goals, and that he believes sacrifice is necessary for the greater good. And yet he believes that his utilitarian point of view is also based on empathy, which is kind of a contradiction, like in this situation. If he doesn't feel empathy for an unknowable number of people he will become insecure about the idea of greater good.

And while Superman would put utilitarianism above empathy, Wonder Woman would put empathy above utilitarianism. Batman is the most indecisive of the three when it comes to deciding this

[Agent Z]

Let's put it this way, how would Diana react to the end of Watchmen?

What Ozymandias did at the end of Watchmen wasn't pragmatism.

[Agent Z]

Yes i expressed myself badly, what i meant was they have the same ideals and stand for the same thing like peace, justice, love, all that crap.
On the personality side i agreed they are different giving the exemple of how Diana don't mind being over violent when needed without regret.

I also agree and really like this:



Although WW while being more talkative and maybe proactive, i don't think she's that extrovert. She's not an attention seeker for example.

By definition being overly violent is not needed. Diana killing in self defense or defense of others is not the same as being a berserker.

[Alpha]

What Ozymandias did at the end of Watchmen wasn't pragmatism.

I didn't say Ozymandias was being pragmatic. But what Dr Manhattan did was pragmatic. He understood that revealling the truth, would be putting ideals over reason. It would be a "good" action with bad consequences. I think Diana would absolutely refuse to keep the secret. So in this case she would be idealistic.

[Robanker]

Let's put it this way, how would Diana react to the end of Watchmen?

To be honest? I think she'd knock him the hell out.