Marauders #17 spoilers

[Hulkout42]

The hellions is more Sinister's fault than Apocalypse.



You mean only 2 people cared? that still a exception

Your not wrong, i mean i found it very sad that the New X-men showed more reaction for the return of Windancer than the death of Rockslide and his replacement taking his place.

[Rang10]

Yeah but if Apocalypse hadn't opened Pandora's box them Sinister wouldn't have done what he did now would he?

Apocalypse gave Sinister a chance to do some evil. Someone should step up and keep a eye closer to what the villains are doing

[Hulkout42]

Apocalypse gave Sinister a chance to do some evil. Someone should step up and keep a eye closer to what the villains are doing

Good luck with finding anyone that will, they can't even keep an eye when Beast is pulling some ridiculous stunt, their people are in Mojoworld or keep the island safe from threats.

[Zelena]

Um no. You dont have to be born in the US to be a US citizen. Citizenship is granted automatically by having American parents. You can be a racist born and spent most of your life outside of the US and come here as a citizen and not be kicked up simply bc you have racist values

And sometimes you wish never having been born in the US:

https://www.thebalance.com/accidenta...erseas-3193099

[Steel Inquisitor]

The term supervillian is relative and they arent supervillians on Krakoa

Until Krakoa it wasn't, the X-men are very, very familiar with what these villains do to them and anyone who they think will be a threat or someone to use as an experiment. I'm sure they';ve lost count how many terms these people have tried to murder and torture them. Those things are evil, right? They've experienced that evil up close and even when they reach out they get betrayed and attacked. Except when they do super-villainous things, like what Selene was up to in Captain America. Since when do the so-called X-men not care about one of their own trying to form a coup and creating a cult to murder people for their life energy? They used to fight Selene over things like that, so what happened? The Quiet Council are a farce, and built on lies. They are the villains in their story, just like the Illuminati was.

Apocalypse gave Sinister a chance to do some evil. Someone should step up and keep a eye closer to what the villains are doing

It's Apocalypse, the person who taught and moulded Sinister into what he is today and Essex begun as a monstrous human being who abducted the homeless to experiment on them to death. He was Josef Mengele in the 18th century, and that's what made him appealing to Apocalypse.

[Zelena]

Until Krakoa it wasn't, the X-men are very, very familiar with what these villains do to them and anyone who they think will be a threat or someone to use as an experiment. I'm sure they';ve lost count how many terms these people have tried to murder and torture them. Those things are evil, right? They've experienced that evil up close and even when they reach out they get betrayed and attacked. Except when they do super-villainous things, like what Selene was up to in Captain America. Since when do the so-called X-men not care about one of their own trying to form a coup and creating a cult to murder people for their life energy? They used to fight Selene over things like that, so what happened? The Quiet Council are a farce, and built on lies. They are the villains in their story, just like the Illuminati was.

How easily the X-men have accepted the current situation is very an un-X-men thing… but everything that is published is canon. What a mess, this canon…

[Frobisher]

Until Krakoa it wasn't, the X-men are very, very familiar with what these villains do to them and anyone who they think will be a threat or someone to use as an experiment. I'm sure they';ve lost count how many terms these people have tried to murder and torture them. Those things are evil, right? They've experienced that evil up close and even when they reach out they get betrayed and attacked. Except when they do super-villainous things, like what Selene was up to in Captain America. Since when do the so-called X-men not care about one of their own trying to form a coup and creating a cult to murder people for their life energy? They used to fight Selene over things like that, so what happened? The Quiet Council are a farce, and built on lies. They are the villains in their story, just like the Illuminati was.

It's Apocalypse, the person who taught and moulded Sinister into what he is today and Essex begun as a monstrous human being who abducted the homeless to experiment on them to death. He was Josef Mengele in the 18th century, and that's what made him appealing to Apocalypse.

And If any of these guys go back to their old tricks, they go in the Hole. The X-Men finally grew up and formed a political solution instead of running around in primary coloured lycra playing Cowboys and Indians.

[Steel Inquisitor]

And If any of these guys go back to their old tricks, they go in the Hole. The X-Men finally grew up and formed a political solution instead of running around in primary coloured lycra playing Cowboys and Indians.

Apocalypse did, more than once. They did nothing to him. Beast and Selene weren't thrown in the Pit, either. The only known mutant punished for that is Sabretooth, and Omega Red was made into a slave drone by X-Force recently which wasn't done with Council approval.

The X-men were a superhero team who fought mutants, and other villains who regularly tried to murder and torture them on a daily occurrence, because those villains were a threat to mutant kind and other peoples. It's not a "politically solution" when they join the bad guys and let them do whatever they want, it means they gave up their ideals - Apocalypse was right to be "proud" of the X-men, they're on his team now and he's on Team Evil. The Xavier who cared about his students is dead.

[Frobisher]

Apocalypse did, more than once. They did nothing to him. Beast and Selene weren't thrown in the Pit, either. The only known mutant punished for that is Sabretooth, and Omega Red was made into a slave drone by X-Force recently which wasn't done with Council approval.

The X-men were a superhero team who fought mutants, and other villains who regularly tried to murder and torture them on a daily occurrence, because those villains were a threat to mutant kind and other peoples. It's not a "politically solution" when they join the bad guys and let them do whatever they want, it means they gave up their ideals - Apocalypse was right to be "proud" of the X-men, they're on his team now and he's on Team Evil. The Xavier who cared about his students is dead.

It'd actually be a really neat idea to do a story about mutants who refuse to accept the new situation, and how they basically become the new zealots and terrorists. Sort of the like the Real IRA and other factions who didn't want to put down their guns and bombs after the compromise of the Good Friday Agreement.

[Grunty]

The X-Men finally grew up and formed a political solution instead of running around in primary coloured lycra playing Cowboys and Indians.

Last time i checked they are still running around in primary colored lycra playing cowboy and indians. That's the still the entire foundation of this comic franchise, regardless of how much the writers try to pretend they are working on some high concept super powered society epic (that would require a whole different setup and narrative in my opinion than what the comics can deliver as they are still tied to their super hero comic nature).

Only now the heroic natives/cowboys invalidate their moral and ethical standards to a large degree by willingly welcoming and joining force with their own worst, with only a miniscule amount of questioning or critizing it, just so they can form a united front against the villainous cowboys/natives. All because many of the last 20 years of stories involved heaping on the missery pile over and over, until only the bleakest vision of the future seems acceptable as outcome.

But i understand that i can't change any minds here. The readers seem to have formed their stances and hold them firmly on what ever they find the current status quo and the actions of the heros acceptable, questionable, rejectable or somewhere in between.

I personaly feel like questioning them. To me the whole thing feels like the reader should not blindly accept them as right, just because the heros they have followed for years are doing or accepting them. But to wonder what can still be acceptable and where they are going too far?
Just like how the first Dune novel can make the readers highly loyal and supportive towards Paul Atreides (just like the characters around him) only for the sequels to reveal the price and consequences of such loyality when he allows horrible deeds to happen and the hands of his followers and leaves a ruined world to his children.

After all this story feels build to break down by design too. So the cracks have to be somewhere and the question is which one of the cracks will leads to it all crumbling down.

[Frobisher]

Last time i checked they are still running around in primary colored lycra playing cowboy and indians. That's the still the entire foundation of this comic franchise, regardless of how much the writers try to pretend they are working on some high concept super powered society epic (that would require a whole different setup and narrative in my opinion than what the comics can deliver as they are still tied to their super hero comic nature).

Only now the heroic natives/cowboys invalidate their moral and ethical standards to a large degree by willingly welcoming and joining force with their own worst, with only a miniscule amount of questioning or critizing it, just so they can form a united front against the villainous cowboys/natives. All because many of the last 20 years of stories involved heaping on the missery pile over and over, until only the bleakest vision of the future seems acceptable as outcome.

But i understand that i can't change any minds here. The readers seem to have formed their stances and hold them firmly on what ever they find the current status quo and the actions of the heros acceptable, questionable, rejectable or somewhere in between.

I personaly feel like questioning them. To me the whole thing feels like the reader should not blindly accept them as right, just because the heros they have followed for years are doing or accepting them. But to wonder what can still be acceptable and where they are going too far?
Just like how the first Dune novel can make the readers highly loyal and supportive towards Paul Atreides (just like the characters around him) only for the sequels to reveal the price and consequences of such loyality when he allows horrible deeds to happen and the hands of his followers and leaves a ruined world to his children.

After all this story feels build to break down by design too. So the cracks have to be somewhere and the question is which one of the cracks will leads to it all crumbling down.

Ha, if you really want to see the cracks in the firmament, explain how the status quo of Earth Prime/616 with super powered individuals playing dress-up as extra-legal vigilante squads and criminals - battling in the street regardless of the collatoral damage to innocent lives and society, with their regular global invasions and civil wars - can be viewed as anything but dystopian. This system is only sustainable because none of those with the power to change things wish to do so - they want to live as adventurers, as conquerers.

[Zelena]

But i understand that i can't change any minds here. The readers seem to have formed their stances and hold them firmly on what ever they find the current status quo and the actions of the heros acceptable, questionable, rejectable or somewhere in between.

Frankly, sometimes, seeing some scans, I wonder why I liked them so much… what made them likable before. It is something I never questioned as a child. I was on their side, seeing things from their point of view, feeling what these “paper characters” felt…

And then, it was the will of the author, back then. The mutants were like other people, neither better nor worse, just with powers and that last thing was the only difference with the reader… The connection was easy and the X-men were good, courageous people… there was no apologia of vengeance.

I see that some people can still identify with the mutants, reading their stories…

[Marvell2100]

Please change Bishop's costume! Please!!!!!!

[loke13]

Apocalypse did, more than once. They did nothing to him. Beast and Selene weren't thrown in the Pit, either. The only known mutant punished for that is Sabretooth, and Omega Red was made into a slave drone by X-Force recently which wasn't done with Council approval.

The X-men were a superhero team who fought mutants, and other villains who regularly tried to murder and torture them on a daily occurrence, because those villains were a threat to mutant kind and other peoples. It's not a "politically solution" when they join the bad guys and let them do whatever they want, it means they gave up their ideals - Apocalypse was right to be "proud" of the X-men, they're on his team now and he's on Team Evil. The Xavier who cared about his students is dead.

Ah and the "XMEN ARE EVIL NOW!!!" hyperbole continues.

I hate takes like this. Because it consistently ignores any sort of nuisance and tries to paint things in a black and white good/ evil brush. It limits storytelling and frankly just makes things boring.

The X-men are a nation now. Which means national interest will take precedence over personal grievances and beliefs.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Ah and the "XMEN ARE EVIL NOW!!!" hyperbole continues.

I hate takes like this. Because it consistently ignores any sort of nuisance and tries to paint things in a black and white good/ evil brush. It limits storytelling and frankly just makes things boring.

The X-men are a nation now. Which means national interest will take precedence over personal grievances and beliefs.

My take was far more complex than what you're responding to. When characters doing evil things I call them out on it, I'm not going to sit here and praise Apocalypse when he does things like betraying the Externals because he doesn't see them as people. It's kind of his thing. This is also where Sinister learnt how to upgrade his evil from simply killing the homeless to being a worldwide threat to everyone for the lolz.

There is nuance, but not for everything in krakoa. Many, many characters in Krkao do very black and white things in the cloak of "good" like all villains do. Which is what they were doing long before krakoa. Magneto was doing that in the 60's, it's what made him a compelling villain.

Nations who let monsters do whatever they like, including harming their own citizens, without consequences only proves that the QC aren't really that interested in keeping a leash on those very same villains. By letting this go the government give permission for what they did, and I';m supposed to think they're heroes? Why would an X-man being ok with what Selene did in Captain America? Sabretooth being shown into the Pit is meant to be an example but they didn't really do that - it looks more and more they just personally hated sabre tooth so they just wanted an excuse to get rid of him while letting other people far more dangerous commit acts both against other nations and their own citizens with barely a slapped wrist. Consider this, if Marvel Anmwerica was doing the same things as Krkao would they be a "good" government? And Norman Osborn is a pussy cat compared to Apocalypse, Nur's kill count was higher by the Bronze Age and he wasn't pretending to be the Punisher at that stage he was Death to civilisations who made any progress.

The Apocalypse says he is proud of them and that he thinks they've embraced his ideology should be a big red flag. Instead they just were ok with that? And let him do whatever. Like what they're doing with Sinister, and Selene and other villains.

I'm not limiting anything, I have no control over what Hickman and the other writers write I'm just calling a spade a spade. Or do you dispute the events in canon as I said? Being a nation is not an excuse to let villains run the show without accountability, that goes against what Krkao supposed to be about so why are they ok not living up to their own expectations?

Personal issues and beliefs clash in nations, because they're people. They really shouldn't be getting along like this unless Xavier did a memory wipe without telling anyone.