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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    They're never going to go away with how the movie hit and how DC and dudebros are obsessed with them.

    It's more about "will the lasso, bracelets and tiara be forgotten" which I really hope they don't.
    But are the editors forcing this, or do we have a chance that some writers can decide to avoid them?

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    But are the editors forcing this, or do we have a chance that some writers can decide to avoid them?
    It sells. That's what's forcing it more than editors. Editorial tried to force lots of things down people's throats and they don't sell so they disappear. Diana's movie nearly cracked a billion, she was the one thing even haters seemed to enjoy from BvS, and most her adaptions have it now. That's the metric that determines this stuff. WW84 was the big chance to see the sword and shield go away and the clear message has been it's not as beloved as the first, so they're not going anywhere.

  3. #18
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    It sells. That's what's forcing it more than editors. Editorial tried to force lots of things down people's throats and they don't sell so they disappear. Diana's movie nearly cracked a billion, she was the one thing even haters seemed to enjoy from BvS, and most her adaptions have it now. That's the metric that determines this stuff. WW84 was the big chance to see the sword and shield go away and the clear message has been it's not as beloved as the first, so they're not going anywhere.
    The first movie was better developed. It had nothging to do with the sword and shield. Also WW comics do not set the sales on fire, with the sword/shield and all. So they better start thinking why the title doesn't sell as much as it could. It is because they allow writers to change origin, cast, powers etc everytime a new run starts. they never allow her to settle. And her comic has been a real bore for most of the past runs except some exceptions. She feels lost, with no vivid personality, she doesn't feel powerful. These problems are not fixed with the sword and shield. In fact she has felt consistently weaker and more boring since the sword and shield became standard. Where is the sparkle in WW comics nowaday? Aren't DC heads thinking of this when looking at her average comic sales?

  4. #19
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    I see no problem having both. If the characters reach a point where it is static and not have some contemporary appeal to it, WW will join the mythos of Betty Boop in the future. I do think the shield is not necessary, and I always advocate having WW being able to transform her magic lasso into any weapon she decides (hence, more magic), and her Tiara as a sword. WW can still be about love ans tuff, but hopefully they avoid the preachy aspects of promoting it (the more subtle the better).

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    They're never going to go away with how the movie hit and how DC and dudebros are obsessed with them.

    It's more about "will the lasso, bracelets and tiara be forgotten" which I really hope they don't.
    This is what the real arguments about the sword and shield boil down to and it is completely unfounded. Every shot with the sword and shield also features the Lasso and it still gets prominent use most of the time. In fact, it's actually rare for the sword to be the deciding factor in a fight. Furthermore, the sword and shield are easy scapegoats for Diana being written poorly and that can happen without them as seen in most of the JLU cartoon.

    The sword and shield are not the true problems with how DC handles Diana and the hostility towards them reeks of appeal to originalism and aversion towards any change to the character whether they be good or bad (and yes, there have been bad changes to Diana but again, the sword and shield don't necessarily fall under that category).
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-15-2021 at 02:09 AM.

  6. #21
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    You'd think people would see Diana dealing with stuff with her bare hands would be seen as greater than having to use weapons. Never seen anyone think Kenshiro would be more impressive if he used more weapons.
    Last edited by The World; 01-15-2021 at 06:28 AM.
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  7. #22
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't understand it either. Let's just give Thor a sword and shield too now that we're at it. He's also a warrior right?

  8. #23
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is what the real arguments about the sword and shield boil down to and it is completely unfounded. Every shot with the sword and shield also features the Lasso and it still gets prominent use most of the time. In fact, it's actually rare for the sword to be the deciding factor in a fight. Furthermore, the sword and shield are easy scapegoats for Diana being written poorly and that can happen without them as seen in most of the JLU cartoon.

    The sword and shield are not the true problems with how DC handles Diana and the hostility towards them reeks of appeal to originalism and aversion towards any change to the character whether they be good or bad (and yes, there have been bad changes to Diana but again, the sword and shield don't necessarily fall under that category).
    But at least in comics. sword and shield have been more consistently present in the past years of bad portrayals of the character. It is easier to lowball her strength, speed and durability, when sword and shield now takes the time and space in battle scenes where her powers used to have the leading role.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    But at least in comics. sword and shield have been more consistently present in the past years of bad portrayals of the character.
    Correlation not causation. Poor feats and bad characterization are not exclusive to use of the sword and shield.


    It is easier to lowball her strength, speed and durability, when sword and shield now takes the time and space in battle scenes where her powers used to have the leading role.
    Haven't you also complained about them doing the same thing in WW 1984 where the sword and shield aren't present?

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Correlation not causation. Poor feats and bad characterization are not exclusive to use of the sword and shield.




    Haven't you also complained about them doing the same thing in WW 1984 where the sword and shield aren't present?
    WW84 had WW being depowered for most of the plot. Still what she did while very depowered was good for that context. While in the comics they have been portraying her as just super human warrior where sword and shield are more used than her actual powers, that are no longer used in high tier level most of the time.

  11. #26
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I repeat, if you are ok with Wonder Woman using a sword and shield, would you also be ok with Thor using a sword and shield?

  12. #27
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    These characters have unique items that represent what they believe in and how they resolve conflicts. There's nothing she would do with a swird abd a shield tgat would make more sense for her than lasso, bracelets, tiara and her own hands.

    Heck, I think it's almost as bad as giving Katana a gun or a spear.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I repeat, if you are ok with Wonder Woman using a sword and shield, would you also be ok with Thor using a sword and shield?
    Depending on the circumstances, yes. However, Thor doesn't have a history of using a sword the same way Wonder Woman does and his weapon is a lot more versatile than Diana's is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    These characters have unique items that represent what they believe in and how they resolve conflicts. There's nothing she would do with a swird abd a shield tgat would make more sense for her than lasso, bracelets, tiara and her own hands.
    A lasso and a pair of hands do not have the same function as a sword. Unless you're arguing against her using lethal force altogether, saying a Lasso and bracelets will serve the same function as a sword and shield is absurd to say the least.

    Superman gets new powers all the time. Batman frequently updates his arsenal. The Flash is constantly coming up with new applications for super speed. But Wonder Woman getting a new weapon that doesn't replace her old ones causes so much damn controversy.

    The only thing a sword and shield does is how Diana's versatility and gives her more options in a battle since she is primarily a close range fighter. No one supporting the use of the sword is asking for the lasso to be removed which is what the paranoia over the sword is really about.

    Heck, I think it's almost as bad as giving Katana a gun or a spear.
    Katana's very name dictates her using anything other than a sword would be difficult to accept.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-15-2021 at 10:18 AM.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is what the real arguments about the sword and shield boil down to and it is completely unfounded. Every shot with the sword and shield also features the Lasso and it still gets prominent use most of the time. In fact, it's actually rare for the sword to be the deciding factor in a fight. Furthermore, the sword and shield are easy scapegoats for Diana being written poorly and that can happen without them as seen in most of the JLU cartoon.

    The sword and shield are not the true problems with how DC handles Diana and the hostility towards them reeks of appeal to originalism and aversion towards any change to the character whether they be good or bad (and yes, there have been bad changes to Diana but again, the sword and shield don't necessarily fall under that category).
    The sword and shield are more symbols of the tonal shift in the character which is where the ire draws from and their presence does make people want to use them which leads to, well, Warrior Woman. On their own? Sure, not the problem, but that doesn't change that they point the direction where apparently a lot of fan (myself included) don't agree is true to Diana's character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    These characters have unique items that represent what they believe in and how they resolve conflicts. There's nothing she would do with a swird abd a shield tgat would make more sense for her than lasso, bracelets, tiara and her own hands.

    Heck, I think it's almost as bad as giving Katana a gun or a spear.
    What about if we Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter this and put a rifle barrel in the hilt of her blade so the pommel can kick out and she shoots someone?!

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Depending on the circumstances, yes. However, Thor doesn't have a history of using a sword the same way Wonder Woman does and his weapon is a lot more versatile than Diana's is.



    A lasso and a pair of hands do not have the same function as a sword. Unless you're arguing against her using lethal force altogether, saying a Lasso and bracelets will serve the same function as a sword and shield is absurd to say the least.

    Superman gets new powers all the time. Batman frequently updates his arsenal. The Flash is constantly coming up with new applications for super speed. But Wonder Woman getting a new weapon that doesn't replace her old ones causes so much damn controversy.

    The only thing a sword and shield does is how Diana's versatility and gives her more options in a battle since she is primarily a close range fighter. No one supporting the use of the sword is asking for the lasso to be removed which is what the paranoia over the sword is really about.



    Katana's very name dictates her using anything other than a sword would be difficult to accept.
    She had plenty of versatility before sword and shield. She also has: Astral projection, dimensional traveling, some magical spells, force shields, fires of hestia, lightning of zeus, gaea's regeneration and reformation, bracelets healing field, divine indestructibility, force to tell the truth, force feeding the truth, negating transformations and magic, countering reality alteration to a degree, seeing souls, entering souls, catching souls, trapping people inside their souls, able to attack souls, weak spot detection and divinity detection, magical super stretching, magical super sharpness, divine sight and seeing through illusions thanks to the sight of Athena, telepathy resistance, magic resistance, channeling the godwave, talking with animals, super senses, super intelligence, super fast language learning, divine beauty and longevity to a high degree.

    On the other hand. The sword is far more one dimensional compared to what the lasso can do. And the shield doesn't hold a candle to the bracelets in terms of a defensive weapon. As the bracelets allow more versatility and mobility. And are far better to have badass fighting scenes showing super speed and skills to block and deflect attacks, than the shield could ever dream of.

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