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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    what argument was made about two face?
    Literally my post on the matter: "But the main argument was that Two Face was tacked on and kind of wasted. "

  2. #77
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Xavier nearly succeeded in killing everyone, part of the cynicism and darkness of the movie is Kids never should be portrayed as villains, Stryker ordered the death of his own son and the mutant race, which made things very personal. to give another 4th dimension of Stryker's beef with the mutants. You can add a 5th dimension, that Jason killed his Wife his own mother, or a 6th dimensional of Xavier promising to help Jason and failing or a 7th dimension that Xavier helped wolverine, who Stryker saw as a failed Weapon X experiment but Xavier could not help his son. There were many layers to X2 that earned the darkness and heaviness of that film but if I remember correctly, X-Men is a soap opera and not a very light one.




    The nightcrawler scene is the most memorable VFX of the movie. the most memorable scene of X2 was Bobby coming out , the themes of that scene is also very well explored with many characters POV, unlike Killmonger where the he mentions slavery but none of that gets explored.

    To say nothing come close to that scene is laughable, black suffers from the save problems as civil war, MCU loves to bait themes, they never care to explore them. the entire plot of X2 is mostly lifted from the events of World War 2 and usual day to day prejudice experience. Stryker is very much like Hitler, coming into power and using politics and government to wipe out a particular race. Black Panther follows other Disney movies ,Lion King and Thor 1.


    It's funny how you bring up Killmonger. Killmonger is a Magneto-lite character. Who is Jewish. . that came up every time in X2 that some could argue it was too preachy.

    Black Panther's story telling is not up to that level, if I remember that film correctly, the main plot of black panther was a country that is very rich and don't want to share resources and a cousin wanting to be king. prejudice and racism are not the focus of that movie at all like X2. so no offence, saying it did it better than X2 in that area is a lie.

    I cant even remember any other character from black panther talking about prejudice like Nightcrawler or having to leave home and not come back like Bobby or another character like Jason, just loose everything and die. all because they are mutants. the characters in black panther are very rich, have access to power, in control, loved and very comfortable. they are not hiding, hated by the public or living in fear or fighting against their own holocaust like mutants.

    Now back to the dark knight rises, a movie I would say had more realism in comparison to X2 than Black Panther and I am not just talking about the type of cinematography, sound, or the choice of VFX. Nolan had already seen X-men 1, one of the movies he used as a template to make his batman movies and to many did things better.
    Oh Jesus what are you talking about KillMonger wanted to be King to "Kill all the Opressors". Nikia whole point of the movie was to tell Tchalla how much Black people are suffering in the outside world and that they should break tradition and help. The whole Crux of the story is Killmonger. Hes a Black person who was stripped of his identity and heritage(African Americans cut off from this because of slavery). Oppressed and mistreated, then used by the US as a weapon. The movie is about identity. Killmonger like African American during and after slavery has no idea who he is because it was taken from him. Meanwhile Tchalla is black excellence, basically he's the balck Steve Roger's he's so perfect. And he knows exactly who he is. That's why his mom yelling out Show him who you are during the ceremonial fights is important.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Because this moment right here....one of the most iconic moments in Batman history....was turned into a joke.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Oh Jesus what are you talking about KillMonger wanted to be King to "Kill all the Opressors". Nikia whole point of the movie was to tell Tchalla how much Black people are suffering in the outside world and that they should break tradition and help. The whole Crux of the story is Killmonger. Hes a Black person who was stripped of his identity and heritage(African Americans cut off from this because of slavery). Oppressed and mistreated, then used by the US as a weapon. The movie is about identity. Killmonger like African American during and after slavery has no idea who he is because it was taken from him. Meanwhile Tchalla is black excellence, basically he's the balck Steve Roger's he's so perfect. And he knows exactly who he is. That's why his mom yelling out Show him who you are during the ceremonial fights is important.
    that part of Killmonger's story is never explored in the film. His main story was to take the throne.

    Nikia whole point of the movie was to tell Tchalla how much Black people are suffering in the outside world and that they should break tradition and help. The whole Crux of the story is Killmonger.
    She told him only at the end, the movie did not show black people suffering, dealing with it, talking about divisibly, and looking for ways out. in fact the movie does the opposite.


    . The whole Crux of the story is Killmonger. Hes a Black person who was stripped of his identity and heritage(African Americans cut off from this because of slavery). Oppressed and mistreated, then used by the US as a weapon.

    I think you are confusing the idea of what we know killmonger is, than what we saw in the movie. for instance mutants have been shown in multiple films getting mistreated, oppressed, ridiculed , experimented on by the government, what they say is the worst xmen movie, wolverine origins showed wolverine freeing mutants for been caged, ready to be turned into weapons by the government. I cannot recall any scene in black panther of such happening to killmomger.

    The movie is about identity. Killmonger like African American during and after slavery has no idea who he is because it was taken from him. Meanwhile Tchalla is black excellence, basically he's the balck Steve Roger's he's so perfect. And he knows exactly who he is. That's why his mom yelling out Show him who you are during the ceremonial fights is important.
    This is not told in great detail in the movie. could be confusing Black Panther with Blackklansman on identity.

    I have seen black panther 3-4 times, the main plot that takes over the film was a country that is super wealthy, killmonger comes back and challenges for the throne, he wins the throne for a while and than black panther takes it back. this is the main plot of the film with some hints that this is a black all star cast movie and some race issues are dropped subtly. it subtle, its not the main plot of the film.


    Please I don't want to talk about black panther or xmen anymore or a dark knight rises thread, you can make a thread for black panther talking about how it is the best social- political message comic film but the advise is not to, because black panther will sink fast once other people start bringing up other comic films that sunk their claws deeper, they don't get called comic booky films anymore. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, X2 is not even the best xmen movie in this area, X-Men first class is. Let's not start on crime, policing, street -life, and corruption that is explored so richly in batman begins you almost forget you are watching what we know should be a superhero film as defined in 2021 not just for marvel but some DC too.
    Last edited by Castle; 01-18-2021 at 04:50 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    Literally my post on the matter: "But the main argument was that Two Face was tacked on and kind of wasted. "
    How was he wasted though? Let's look at the film,

    The movie sets up Rachel well in Batman Begins. Although she is waiting for Bruce in Batman Begins, Rachel seems to be moving on by TDK, the first act of TDK we see Harvey and Rachel in a committed stable relationship.

    Harvey is a great lawyer that loves his job. Bruce is even jealous that Harvey can lock criminals up for good by doing things the normal way unlike him and his Bat-ness. it was well established, Harvey's life was great before Joker killed Rachel and drove him insane. Reason I only wish more that we got an actual Harvey-Rachel-Bruce triangle to flesh the story out.

    But Judging from that I would not say two face was wasted, what i can say is, perhaps the transformation from harvey to two face came too fast. very fast but not wasted.
    Last edited by Castle; 01-19-2021 at 03:58 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    that part of Killmonger's story is never explored in the film. His main story was to take the throne.

    She told him only at the end, the movie did not show black people suffering, dealing with it, talking about divisibly, and looking for ways out. in fact the movie does the opposite.

    I think you are confusing the idea of what we know killmonger is, than what we saw in the movie. for instance mutants have been shown in multiple films getting mistreated, oppressed, ridiculed , experimented on by the government, what they say is the worst xmen movie, wolverine origins showed wolverine freeing mutants for been caged, ready to be turned into weapons by the government. I cannot recall any scene in black panther of such happening to killmomger.

    This is not told in great detail in the movie.

    could be confusing Black Panther with Blackklansman on identity.

    I have seen black panther 3-4 times, the main plot that takes over the film was a country that is super wealthy, killmonger comes back and challenges for the throne, he wins the throne for a while and than black panther takes it back. this is the main plot of the film with some hints that this is a black all star cast movie and some race issues are dropped subtly. it subtle, its not the main plot of the film.


    Please I don't want to talk about black panther or xmen anymore or a dark knight rises thread, you can make a thread for black panther talking about how it is the best social- political message comic film but the advise is not to, because black panther will sink fast once other people start bringing up other comic films that sunk their claws deeper, they don't get called comic booky films anymore. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, X2 is not even the best xmen movie in this area, X-Men first class is. Let's not start on crime, policing, street -life, and corruption that is explored so richly in batman begins you almost forget you are watching what we know should be a superhero film as defined in 2021 not just for marvel but some DC too.
    This is the most messed up, uninformed interpretation of Black Panther i have ever heard of in my life. How do you come up with this BS?

    I mean, I try to respect others' opinions, but meet me halfway. Respect my intellect.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    This is the most messed up, uninformed interpretation of Black Panther i have ever heard of in my life. How do you come up with this BS?

    I mean, I try to respect others' opinions, but meet me halfway. Respect my intellect.
    Marvel has never done well with deeply sinking into social-political angles in movies. it's not just their fortay. black panther, civil war, iron man 3, winter solider, first avenger all of them still fall of the...let's still keep it very comic bookie trap that Disney sets for them in the end. Nolan at his worst is still above that. saying that is not an insult to anyone's intellect or misinterpreting a movie. in the contrary it makes you well informed not uninformed.

    Here is one scene in dark knight rises a flawed movie that still manages to blow up everything fake about Gotham. from the fake Harvey Dent's legacy that he was a saint, to the corrupt police, to their bankrupt government and crooks. they are all almost as bad as the prisoners locked up and bane exposes that hypocrisy.



    Did you see Gorden's face when Bane exposes him as a corrupt cop? Yes, he should resign.
    Last edited by Castle; 01-18-2021 at 04:51 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Marvel has never done well with deeply sinking into social-political angles in movies. it's not just their fortay. black panther, civil war, iron man 3, winter solider, first avenger all of them still fall of the...let's still keep it very comic bookie trap that Disney sets for them in the end. Nolan at his worst is still above that. saying that is not an insult to anyone's intellect or misinterpreting a movie. in the contrary it makes you well informed not uninformed.

    Here is one scene in dark knight rises a flawed movie that still manages to blow up everything fake about Gotham. from the fake Harvey Dent's legacy that he was a saint, to the corrupt police, to their bankrupt government and crooks. they are all almost as bad as the prisoners locked up and bane exposes that hypocrisy.
    Yeah I remember that scene. That's where the audience in the theater chuckled and the guy two rows behind me said "Oh God, what a mess. " and he was right.

    I do appreciate, though, that you provided some hard evidence of what fuels your cinematic biases,
    Last edited by green_garnish; 01-18-2021 at 04:54 PM.

  9. #84
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I didn't hate it, but the adaptation of three of the characters sucked the wind out of it for me. The interpretation of both "Robin" and Talia were too far away from the source for me to like it at all. The reveal on Bane - whose interpretation up to the reveal I had been really digging - just snatched all my enjoyment out of every scene he'd played before.

    I should point out that Anne Hathaway's Catwoman was my favorite character of the entire trilogy. Her turn from masquerading as a mousy caterer into a smooth femme fatale with no more than a shift in facial expression and body language hooked me completely. Her scene in the bar with the kidnapped politician was similar, shifting from dangerous criminal into panicking bystander, but nowhere nearly as powerful as the first because you just weren't ready for it.
    Yes the Catwoman introduction scene got me hyped and in retrospect it is probably one of the best scenes in the movie. Thing is, I missed theatrical run of TDKR and actually watched it first time from a telly many years later. And I had completely forgot any spoilers and preview information there would have been and many twists in the movie took me genuinely by surprise. But still, everything just seemed to fall flat. Oh, it's Talia as a twist villain, doing exact same thing as her daddy did in first movie. Yay? The story didn't NEED somebody else pulling the strings of Bane. It came out as superfluous attempt to provide one more "omg!" moment but it didn't work because there was no setup and we didn't really care about Miranda. I think one problem was that it was known it was the last movie of the trilogy and Nolan wanted to put too much in it. See also discussion about X3.

    I'm the kind of guy to whom movie is about just as good as its best scene. It's a slight exaggaration but I will forgive a LOT if the movie has cathartic kickass scenes. And TDKR didn't. I can't think of a single scene I would seek out from youtube and watch again. The movie is not actively awful or anything, but it's messy and emotionally flat.

  10. #85
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    that part of Killmonger's story is never explored in the film. His main story was to take the throne.



    She told him only at the end, the movie did not show black people suffering, dealing with it, talking about divisibly, and looking for ways out. in fact the movie does the opposite.





    I think you are confusing the idea of what we know killmonger is, than what we saw in the movie. for instance mutants have been shown in multiple films getting mistreated, oppressed, ridiculed , experimented on by the government, what they say is the worst xmen movie, wolverine origins showed wolverine freeing mutants for been caged, ready to be turned into weapons by the government. I cannot recall any scene in black panther of such happening to killmomger.



    This is not told in great detail in the movie. could be confusing Black Panther with Blackklansman on identity.

    I have seen black panther 3-4 times, the main plot that takes over the film was a country that is super wealthy, killmonger comes back and challenges for the throne, he wins the throne for a while and than black panther takes it back. this is the main plot of the film with some hints that this is a black all star cast movie and some race issues are dropped subtly. it subtle, its not the main plot of the film.


    Please I don't want to talk about black panther or xmen anymore or a dark knight rises thread, you can make a thread for black panther talking about how it is the best social- political message comic film but the advise is not to, because black panther will sink fast once other people start bringing up other comic films that sunk their claws deeper, they don't get called comic booky films anymore. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, X2 is not even the best xmen movie in this area, X-Men first class is. Let's not start on crime, policing, street -life, and corruption that is explored so richly in batman begins you almost forget you are watching what we know should be a superhero film as defined in 2021 not just for marvel but some DC too.
    Because you are uncapable of grasping the message of movie doesn't mean it's not there. You talk about deeper things but then say the most surface level of ****. Smh

  11. #86
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    The very fact that he doesn't get what Black panther about should either tell you he's lying to try to prove his point, he's lying about having actually watched it, or he is the world's least perceptive movie watcher ever.

    Anyone of those is a reason to not take what he says in good faith.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The story didn't NEED somebody else pulling the strings of Bane. It came out as superfluous attempt to provide one more "omg!" moment but it didn't work because there was no setup and we didn't really care about Miranda. I think one problem was that it was known it was the last movie of the trilogy and Nolan wanted to put too much in it.
    While I agree to the extent that the story would have worked just fine if Bane was in charge, I've always liked the symmetry between Bruce and Talia in that film. After losing his father, Bruce dons a fictional identity, one built to inspire fear in those who do evil, to bring justice and hope to the city his father loved. After losing hers, Talia dons a fictional identity, one built to inspire false trust in those who do good, to bring despair and destruction to the city her father hated.

    She's the final mirror for Bruce in that film. Selena, who recognizes the system is broken, but chooses only to act in her own self interest. Bane, whose physical prowess and will is bent not to protection and uplifting people but to dominance and destroying them. And Talia, who mirrors Bruce's motivations. Each representing one part of the Batman equation gone bad. There is a fourth mirror, in Blake, but he works differently, showing us a man with all of Bruce's best qualities and resolve but constrained, and ultimately undone, by dedication to the rules and hierarchies of the broken and corrupted system, which Bruce had previously rejected.

    Bruce could have been any of them, if life had taken a different path. But only one of the five can actually inspire hope and bring some kind of justice.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    that part of Killmonger's story is never explored in the film. His main story was to take the throne.



    She told him only at the end, the movie did not show black people suffering, dealing with it, talking about divisibly, and looking for ways out. in fact the movie does the opposite.





    I think you are confusing the idea of what we know killmonger is, than what we saw in the movie. for instance mutants have been shown in multiple films getting mistreated, oppressed, ridiculed , experimented on by the government, what they say is the worst xmen movie, wolverine origins showed wolverine freeing mutants for been caged, ready to be turned into weapons by the government. I cannot recall any scene in black panther of such happening to killmomger.



    This is not told in great detail in the movie. could be confusing Black Panther with Blackklansman on identity.

    I have seen black panther 3-4 times, the main plot that takes over the film was a country that is super wealthy, killmonger comes back and challenges for the throne, he wins the throne for a while and than black panther takes it back. this is the main plot of the film with some hints that this is a black all star cast movie and some race issues are dropped subtly. it subtle, its not the main plot of the film.


    Please I don't want to talk about black panther or xmen anymore or a dark knight rises thread, you can make a thread for black panther talking about how it is the best social- political message comic film but the advise is not to, because black panther will sink fast once other people start bringing up other comic films that sunk their claws deeper, they don't get called comic booky films anymore. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, X2 is not even the best xmen movie in this area, X-Men first class is. Let's not start on crime, policing, street -life, and corruption that is explored so richly in batman begins you almost forget you are watching what we know should be a superhero film as defined in 2021 not just for marvel but some DC too.
    If you are really thinking this, makes me wonder how you manage to understand movies. Or do you read notes during movies explaining them for you? And do you that only not with MCU movies. Because you seem not to understand what they are most about and try to hide that behind your MCU rants.
    Last edited by lowfyr; 01-19-2021 at 12:16 AM.

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Marvel has never done well with deeply sinking into social-political angles in movies. it's not just their fortay. black panther, civil war, iron man 3, winter solider, first avenger all of them still fall of the...let's still keep it very comic bookie trap that Disney sets for them in the end. Nolan at his worst is still above that. saying that is not an insult to anyone's intellect or misinterpreting a movie. in the contrary it makes you well informed not uninformed.

    Here is one scene in dark knight rises a flawed movie that still manages to blow up everything fake about Gotham. from the fake Harvey Dent's legacy that he was a saint, to the corrupt police, to their bankrupt government and crooks. they are all almost as bad as the prisoners locked up and bane exposes that hypocrisy.



    Did you see Gorden's face when Bane exposes him as a corrupt cop? Yes, he should resign.
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Yeah I remember that scene. That's where the audience in the theater chuckled and the guy two rows behind me said "Oh God, what a mess. " and he was right.
    The audience in my cinema did not chuckle. some nodded their heads in agreement with bane. it was a great scene.



    I do appreciate, though, that you provided some hard evidence of what fuels your cinematic biases,
    Yes with the hard evidence as I don't really like to lie to people. Additionally I am not biased.

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