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  1. #1
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Arrow People Complaining About Diversity In Comics

    My good (real life) friend's latest video tackles the anti-diversity crowd who constantly bellyache about diversity in comic books. If so inclined, give him a watch, thanks -

    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #2
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burbigo4 View Post
    This video is really amazing I really liked it, thanks a lot for sharing
    You are welcome.

    Sadly, my buddy who tries to stay positive and put actual thought into his video lags far behind the Comics Gate crowd in terms of popularity on Youtube, as do others like him (for the most part). *sigh* Sleaze, sensationalism, and outrage sell I suppose. I tell him to hang in there but sometimes I think Youtube has become a toxic platform.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-30-2021 at 08:10 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    You are welcome.

    Sadly, my buddy who tries to stay positive and put actual thought into his video lags far behind the Comics Gate crowd in terms of popularity on Youtube, as do others like him (for the most part). *sigh* Sleaze, sensationalism, and outrage sell I suppose. I tell him to hang in there but sometimes I think Youtube has become a toxic platform.
    Haven't watched the whole thing.
    But the problem he address(I think) is that diversity can't be the only factor.But most the new characters are just that.

    Kamala is a great example of how to do a great job.
    I do think he's wrong about Miles though.
    His popularity is from movies and games.
    His comics weren't good before and are stale with a sprinkle of Peter rip-offs in there.

  4. #4
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    And again stuff like Manga still sells much better and Idk if this is a factor or not.
    Does he address this and what are your views.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    Manga has been selling better FOR DECADES. It also has entire sub-genres focused on LGBTQ relationships (aimed mainly at a straight audience, yeah, but still) It's just how it's distributed in Japan and the culture surrounding Manga there that leads to this, more than the content of the books. Some of the reasons it sells better are things American audiences would not be eager to adopt, like black and white art (which means it is faster to produce and cheaper to print) anthologies rather than single issues etc. It has nothing to do with how 'woke' they are or aren't.

    anyway, i watched and gave him an upvote, but if he is open to some constructive criticism, you could maybe tell him to work on cutting down on rambles and tangents, to be more concise and get to the point more efficiently. I mean I know i ramble a lot, but i also don't make Youtube videos.
    Also, just a thing, the point of adding diverse characters isn't to give each and every person a favorite character just like them, trust me, i know i can like characters thatr don't look like me, or share my sexuality etc. I do it all the time. BUT just knowing a character that maybe shares some traits as me that are considered 'diverse' makes it feel like the universe being depicted has a place in it for people like me, even if i am not actively following the story of that character.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-30-2021 at 09:02 PM.

  6. #6
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    Do manga have much in the way of diversity?

    I think your point about manga being black and white and thus faster and cheaper to produce is fairly apt. I don't think American comics would want to change to that

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    not much in the way of racial diversity, and they've been prone to some uncomfortable stereotypes at times. But you have to take into account that, unlike North America and Europe, Japan is a fairly homogeneous country. So if they are going to depict 'the world outside your window' like Marvel tries to do, that world will look very different in terms of racial diversity, and the writers will likely have limited exposure to people of other races in day to day life. And when they do branch outside of Japan, they seem to have a fascination with Europe, which kinda leads to a lot of white characters. Which actually is diverse from a Japanese perspective, but to us, not so much. But even so, same as with Western comics, they have been getting more diverse recently from what i have seen, and the uncomfortable stereotypes have been toned down some, and i don't think it's hurt sales any. https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Cultur...le-with-racism
    Last edited by Raye; 06-30-2021 at 09:37 PM.

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    Ok. Tbh I didn't expect manga to have much racial diversity, because Japan's so homogenous. Nations like America which are far less homogenous should have diverse comics though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Ok. Tbh I didn't expect manga to have much racial diversity, because Japan's so homogenous. Nations like America which are far less homogenous should have diverse comics though.
    I mean manga's sell much better in the western world as well.
    To elaborate, I'm saying that while diversity is good it doesn't do much for sales.
    Most people who read comics read them for the stories.
    As a POC I don't much care what the character's race is as much as story.
    The people like on twitter who want comics to go full SJW(not diverse, but an extreme for e.x. people who get mad when Mckie says FalconBucky is not canon ) don't buy them and if they do read them it's online.
    And extreme cases lead us to Cap marvel(which they are fixing) and She-hulk.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 06-30-2021 at 10:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Raye's Avatar
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    I know Manga sells much better in the west as well. But again, that has been going on for decades. It's nothing new.

    And I think you are attributing far more power to an extreme fringe than they actually have. Do some cringey elements exist on the pro-diversity side? yup. (and same for the more conservative fans. every group has a crazy fringe, it doesn't mean that fringe is representative of the group as a whole) Does that mean the publishers are bowing to their wishes? nope. It is possible for Marvel and/or writers to believe in promoting diversity without it being the result of them being forced to do so by some weird fringe group of vocal fans. It's not all about sales, or bowing to fan demands. Sometimes they may just want to tell a certain story, because it means something to them, personally, or they genuinely, truly, believe in making the Marvel (or DC) universe more reflective of the world they know, or they just think it might be interesting. 'good stories' doesn't mean you can't also advance diversity at the same time. Also, it is extremely disingenuous to say that only a certain type of fans buys comics. sure, different methods of distribution may tend to be bought by different demographics, but just because some may not buy floppies doessn't mean their opinion doesn't count. American comics readership, if you combine floppies, trades and digital, has been growing, not shrinking. It's just that the ways people buy the books has diversified along with the audience, and TPBs/OGNs are king now. By a LOT.

    https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-pandemic-year and specifically: https://icv2.com/gallery/48695/3

    Now, are all of those SUPERHERO comics? no, young reader OGNs have become very popular, and publishers like Scholastic have been killing it in the book channels. But the Big Two have benefited from this as well, as the kids who read the Scholastic books like Smile etc. branch out later and they may pick up some Superhero stuff. And Marvel has courted this crowd themselves, with books like Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, and Squirrel Girl, which were both actually a huge hit, though you'd never know it looking at the Diamond charts.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-30-2021 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I know Manga sells much better in the west as well. But again, that has been going on for decades. It's nothing new.

    And I think you are attributing far more power to an extreme fringe than they actually have. Do some cringey elements exist on the pro-diversity side? yup. (and same for the more conservative fans. every group has a crazy fringe, it doesn't mean that fringe is representative of the group as a whole) Does that mean the publishers are bowing to their wishes? nope. It is possible for Marvel and/or writers to believe in promoting diversity without it being the result of them being forced to do so by some weird fringe group of vocal fans. It's not all about sales, or bowing to fan demands. Sometimes they may just want to tell a certain story, because it means something to them, personally, or they genuinely, truly, believe in making the Marvel (or DC) universe more reflective of the world they know, or they just think it might be interesting. 'good stories' doesn't mean you can't also advance diversity at the same time. Also, it is extremely disingenuous to say that only a certain type of fans buys comics. sure, different methods of distribution may tend to be bought by different demographics, but just because some may not buy floppies doessn't mean their opinion doesn't count. American comics readership, if you combine floppies, trades and digital, has been growing, not shrinking. It's just that the ways people buy the books has diversified along with the audience, and TPBs/OGNs are king now. By a LOT.

    https://icv2.com/articles/markets/vi...-pandemic-year and specifically: https://icv2.com/gallery/48695/3

    Now, are all of those SUPERHERO comics? no, young reader OGNs have become very popular, and publishers like Scholastic have been killing it in the book channels. But the Big Two have benefited from this as well, as the kids who read the Scholastic books like Smile etc. branch out later and they may pick up some Superhero stuff. And Marvel has courted this crowd themselves, with books like Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, and Squirrel Girl, which were both actually a huge hit, though you'd never know it looking at the Diamond charts.
    That's something I didn't know.Thanks.

    My points were
    1)Diversity while important isn't going to boost sales by itself and we need to make sure the quality of stories is high and not use said diversity as an excuse for bad comics.
    2)Marvel/DC shouldn't listen to extremes.We have seen the SJW ruin characters(Captain Marvel, She-Hulk and they just replaced Iron Fist in a terrible way as well),I don't really remember that from the other side(I'm sure there are some just not ones I remember).Not only that many of them also don't buy comics, most of them I have talked to always pirate.
    Also in relations to art I stand that it's a comic book so people can have appealing figured.Both male and females do and I feel complaining about that is a bit stupid.Another Manga>comics thing.
    3)They need to trim down some families like Spider-fam etc.
    One advantage Mangas have over comics, we don't see a bakugo-fam.

  12. #12
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    I keep seeing the argument that Manga sells better and my rebuttal to it is "Of course it does, it has a lower bar of entry".
    Western comics do a really stupid thing of not marketing themselves well. I've always said, you should be able to walk out of a screening of the new Spider-man film and maybe get the chance to buy the Spider-verse trade, Ultimate Spider-man vol 1 and a best of Spider-man.
    Instead Marvel put their trades out of print meaning People who want them, can't get them. I remember reading that House of M is now heavily sort after, but no one can find the trades. Just make them easier to buy
    Give People a two week trial to Unlimited for seeing your movies.

    Anyway, the comic gate crowd are nostalgic for an era that never really happened. I saw one of its most prominent members sing the praises of Daniel Way's Venom, which just might be one of the worst comics I've ever read. They talk about the days before Marvel were "SJW" without realising that Marvel were always creating new characters and dealing with social issues.
    It reminds me of the Safe space and Snowflake debacle. Yeah they were dumb ideas that wouldn't help anyone, but at best, they would have been redesigned and renamed later on, basically given a new identity and at worst they will end up on a worst list somewhere. Comics have always been about throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks. A lot of the time, these ideas are dumb and we say they are dumb and move on.

  13. #13
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Manga has been selling better FOR DECADES. It also has entire sub-genres focused on LGBTQ relationships (aimed mainly at a straight audience, yeah, but still) It's just how it's distributed in Japan and the culture surrounding Manga there that leads to this, more than the content of the books. Some of the reasons it sells better are things American audiences would not be eager to adopt, like black and white art (which means it is faster to produce and cheaper to print) anthologies rather than single issues etc. It has nothing to do with how 'woke' they are or aren't.

    anyway, i watched and gave him an upvote, but if he is open to some constructive criticism, you could maybe tell him to work on cutting down on rambles and tangents, to be more concise and get to the point more efficiently. I mean I know i ramble a lot, but i also don't make Youtube videos.
    Also, just a thing, the point of adding diverse characters isn't to give each and every person a favorite character just like them, trust me, i know i can like characters thatr don't look like me, or share my sexuality etc. I do it all the time. BUT just knowing a character that maybe shares some traits as me that are considered 'diverse' makes it feel like the universe being depicted has a place in it for people like me, even if i am not actively following the story of that character.
    Thank you for the upvote and feedback I'll pass both on.

    He does a stream of consciousness approach (he does ramble, honestly) which can be exhausting for the viewer. I've mentioned this to him already.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #14
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I keep seeing the argument that Manga sells better and my rebuttal to it is "Of course it does, it has a lower bar of entry".
    Western comics do a really stupid thing of not marketing themselves well. I've always said, you should be able to walk out of a screening of the new Spider-man film and maybe get the chance to buy the Spider-verse trade, Ultimate Spider-man vol 1 and a best of Spider-man.
    Instead Marvel put their trades out of print meaning People who want them, can't get them. I remember reading that House of M is now heavily sort after, but no one can find the trades. Just make them easier to buy
    Give People a two week trial to Unlimited for seeing your movies.

    Anyway, the comic gate crowd are nostalgic for an era that never really happened. I saw one of its most prominent members sing the praises of Daniel Way's Venom, which just might be one of the worst comics I've ever read. They talk about the days before Marvel were "SJW" without realising that Marvel were always creating new characters and dealing with social issues.
    It reminds me of the Safe space and Snowflake debacle. Yeah they were dumb ideas that wouldn't help anyone, but at best, they would have been redesigned and renamed later on, basically given a new identity and at worst they will end up on a worst list somewhere. Comics have always been about throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks. A lot of the time, these ideas are dumb and we say they are dumb and move on
    .
    Not to be overly dramatic, but I also see a great deal of hatred in their videos directed towards current creators. A few current creators appear to be their favored punching bags. They seem to count it as a "victory" when one of the creators engages with them out of anger on a platform (typically Twitter) after being constantly needled by them and/or their followers. I think this approach is mean-spirited especially when the criticism gets, as is often the case, extremely personal; lifestyle choices, beliefs, physical appearance, sexuality, ext.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Not to be overly dramatic, but I also see a great deal of hatred in their videos directed towards current creators. A few current creators appear to be their favored punching bags. They seem to count it as a "victory" when one of the creators engages with them out of anger on a platform (typically Twitter) after being constantly needled by them and/or their followers. I think this approach is mean-spirited especially when the criticism gets, as is often the case, extremely personal; lifestyle choices, beliefs, physical appearance, sexuality, ext.
    Oh no, this is also the case. Just the other day I saw YT thumbnail which had Hickman, Howard and Williams photo shopped onto a poster of Weekend at Bernie's and asking "If Hickman abandoned his X-Men Universe?"
    Even in the thumbnail, I'm not one to usually call sexist, but I could see the sexist overtones. Especially how we already know Hickman is doing other X-Men books, Williams is stopping one book for another and Howard is just doing two books, both of which don't seem to be building up to anything event heavy any time soon. I actually thought there was a bit of cowardice in not putting Duggan, the guy who is writing the next volume of the main X-Men book.

    No, there is a certain kind of Comic fan, the one whom Alan Moore would sooner punch that think they speak for the industry. And yet the only People who crossover from the industry are People who burn bridges with those they used to work with. Folks like Van Sciever and Thibert, both of whom I think are extremely talented, have just burned every bridge within the industry. The way they push People off social media and then act like they are attacked, I wish they would just **** off in all honesty.

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