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Thread: Wandavision

  1. #2641
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Dottie is a classic "red herring" i.e. a staple of all TV Shows, and serial stories.

    The show wanted to make the Agnes reveal pack a punch so they kind of set up so that you might think that maybe Dottie was the real bad guy, or Mephisto or any such nonsense. They did other misdirection i.e. that scene in Halloween with Agnes faking being under Wanda's spell.

    So audiences might have thought Dottie could be the villain but then it was Agatha All Along.

    Evan Peters as Ralph was another "red herring".
    Not to mention Jimmy's missing persons case and Monica's aerospace engineer.
    At the end of the day, Westview residents for all of Wanda's mind-control can go back to their normal lives and contact their family and loved ones. While Wanda lost her family, likely forever. So yeah I think it's fair to argue that Wanda did make a real sacrifice for them even if she did control their minds.

    I am kind of amazed that so many people think Wanda is "the next Thanos" for her accidental use of powers she didn't know about or entirely control, while Tony Stark's years of arms profiteering and Ultron-making (which certainly didn't leave many people fit and able to go back to their normal lives at the end of it) doesn't prevent him from being sanctified as a saint.

    At the end of the day, Tony killed more people and hurt more people than Wanda did, and that includes Wanda herself.

    But that's what happens when a woman gets power. Misuse it once and you weaponize her husband to tearfully go "why did you make me hurt you".
    But they'll probably still have lasting psychological trauma from what she made them go through. She gave up her family, that she created, but it was after living out an ideal family life for several days while other people were brainwashed and forced to have nightmares of her trauma.

    I don't think Wanda is going to become the next Thanos, maybe Dark Phoenix if anything, but I feel like she still hasn't properly recompensed for what she did. Especially for how long she willingly kept it going.

  2. #2642
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    To put things in perspective the people at the edge of town couldn't blink, eat or shit without Wandas permission. And they were starving to death. Some also had children abducted and locked away.

    I agree that upon learning this it was resolved with what is akin to a shoulder shrug.

  3. #2643
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    To put things in perspective the people at the edge of town couldn't blink, eat or shit without Wandas permission. And they were starving to death. Some also had children abducted and locked away.

    I agree that upon learning this it was resolved with what is akin to a shoulder shrug.
    Or a "walk of shame."

    Like, maybe have Monica say she needs to take responsibility somehow and Wanda says "I will. Somehow" before she flies off if she's not going to let herself be arrested.

  4. #2644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Lesson View Post
    Is Wanda's grief inherently more important than anyone else's? Should we all, least of all a S.W.O.R.D. agent, be ok with her torturing an entire town for a week because it came out of duress?
    it's a comic accurate deciption of wanda and her narrative.
    abusing her powers, making selfish rash decisions, avoiding any acountability yet the narrative makes sure she's more of a victim than... well the actual victims of her actions.
    Bar for bar the exact essence of wanda maximoff, but in here she's written with way more depth and an active participant, so her journey into anti-hero/questionable morals is actually interesting and enjoyable
    Last edited by Ferro; 03-05-2021 at 06:20 PM.

  5. #2645
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Or a "walk of shame."

    Like, maybe have Monica say she needs to take responsibility somehow and Wanda says "I will. Somehow" before she flies off if she's not going to let herself be arrested.
    For sure, I mean we are talking about Wandas trauma but we are all forgetting about the very real trauma of every citizen trapped. Had the story been told from Dotties perspective what Monica said could be looked at as callous. Was that bit about the citizens necessary or could they have just had Wanda making sure they carry out basics to seem a little humane
    Though I imagine this is a world that hates superheroes and Sentinels won't be too far behind now. And I guess Wanda isn't meant to be a hero anymore after learning from the Darkhold

  6. #2646
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Ok I have a theory Billy fucked up and did some shit. Cause one he reads minds that look on his face and the way he was kinda sitting up while Tommy was laying down tells me he probably knew they were about to die. After they were tucked in they turned off the lights but when the hex is enclosing on the house you can see the upstairs lights were on again so what if he did some spell fucked up and got him & Tommy in some au dimension. Just a theory that or all the Mephisto shit is true and we see it MoM.
    Billy was looking kinda suspect...

  7. #2647
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    For sure, I mean we are talking about Wandas trauma but we are all forgetting about the very real trauma of every citizen trapped. Had the story been told from Dotties perspective what Monica said could be looked at as callous. Was that bit about the citizens necessary or could they have just had Wanda making sure they carry out basics to seem a little humane
    Though I imagine this is a world that hates superheroes and Sentinels won't be too far behind now. And I guess Wanda isn't meant to be a hero anymore after learning from the Darkhold
    The MCU mutants are screwed because by the time they show up even the Avengers are gonna be hated and feared. Hayward’s line line about “powered individuals” earlier in the show point to the idea that people probably blame superheroes for the snap and all the other weird stuff that goes down.

  8. #2648
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    The MCU mutants are screwed because by the time they show up even the Avengers are gonna be hated and feared. Hayward’s line line about “powered individuals” earlier in the show point to the idea that people probably blame superheroes for the snap and all the other weird stuff that goes down.
    we already got that in CW. Super beings were hated bc of the Avengers actins in AoU. It only make sense that it gets worse from there especially after Infinity War

  9. #2649
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Wanda is going to become the next Thanos, maybe Dark Phoenix if anything, but I feel like she still hasn't properly recompensed for what she did. Especially for how long she willingly kept it going.
    Within the MCU, so many others have done far worse things for which they haven't compensated or made amends, that it's trite to kvetch about Wanda, especially since what she did was reversible and reversed. Yes there'll be trauma and baggage for those people, but that doesn't compare to what others did by intent or indifference:
    -- Tony Stark, Black Widow, had far more blood on their hands.
    -- Hawkeye when he goes Ronin murdered scores of gangsters for five years playing judge, jury, execution.
    -- Hulk on Sakaar killed other gladiatorial contestants, many of them oppressed aliens like him, and indeed likely would have been Korg had Thor not arrived.
    -- Doctor Strange sacrificed Iron Man's life without his knowledge and consent.
    -- Captain Marvel as a Kree soldier committed many war crimes against Skrulls and killed thousands of them.
    -- Thor is the son of a genocidal tyrant, and he himself notes that he killed more than 1000 people in his life.

    Now you can argue that Captain Marvel, like Winter Soldier, was brainwashed and not entirely in control and so on, but that applies to Wanda as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    To put things in perspective the people at the edge of town couldn't blink, eat or shit without Wandas permission. And they were starving to death. Some also had children abducted and locked away.

    I agree that upon learning this it was resolved with what is akin to a shoulder shrug.
    Again, all of that was reversible and reversed unlike some of the damage other heroes did and were reversed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    it's a comic accurate deciption of wanda and her narrative.
    I understand and share the grudge against Wanda in 616 Marvel, but MCU Wanda is a completely different character and doesn't deserve to be tarred with association. Just like MCU Hank Pym isn't the same as 616 Hank Pym. It's not the same thing, and not the same context. Unlike "no more mutants", what she did to Westview while bad and terrible wasn't as damaging or long lasting or as large a scale.

    Bar for bar the exact essence of wanda maximoff, but in here she's written with way more depth and an active participant, so her journey into anti-hero/questionable morals is actually interesting and enjoyable
    MCU Wanda is framed as a tragic heroine, someone who wished to do good and tried to do good, and has done good, but never truly had control over her life. People either wanted to lock her up or tried to harness her powers or use her, and the few people who made her happy died. Monica underwent the same torture that Wanda's magic placed on everyone and yet she was able to empathize with Wanda and admit that under the same situation she would have done what she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    The MCU mutants are screwed because by the time they show up even the Avengers are gonna be hated and feared. Hayward’s line line about “powered individuals” earlier in the show point to the idea that people probably blame superheroes for the snap and all the other weird stuff that goes down.
    The Fantastic Four are around the corner to revive the good ol'time superhero chair.

    Besides, the X-Men don't really need the Avengers or anyone for people to hate or fear them, the reasons why people hate mutants but don't mind getting powers was given a solid answer by Hickman. So world-building wise, this was one hatch that got closed down conclusively.

  10. #2650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    it's a comic accurate deciption of wanda and her narrative.
    abusing her powers, making selfish rash decisions, avoiding any acountability yet the narrative makes sure she's more of a victim than... well the actual victims of her actions.
    Bar for bar the exact essence of wanda maximoff, but in here she's written with way more depth and an active participant, so her journey into anti-hero/questionable morals is actually interesting and enjoyable
    Just on MCU Wanda, cause I can go all day with Comic Wanda and you know me on that, is that from in this Episode after Wanda finally awoken to the realities of the Hex and pieced together her broken grief in episode 8 that when confronted about its true nature she Let got the people of the town, IMO it makes for more a tragic perfect storm that no one saw coming that lead to these events. But when a character like Wanda comes back to her true self outside of the trappings of the hex on her mind and grief she reverses it and even gives up her own tie to Happiness in letting go of Vision and the Kids to free the town to put right with what went wrong in an unknowing way.

    She even realizes now what her powers can do and takes herself aways to go to try and learn about them and control them far away where no one can get hurt. I felt that was interesting growth their for her charcter too.

    Nothing in writing is smooth or pefect by the end, but I don't expect that anymore, I just enjoy and piece together what I got and in this show it was Majority Solid, so very good on that.

    The ending reminded me of The Incredible Hulk 2008 Edward Norton Hulk ending, same deal of a Marvel Character trying to control a power and learn from it. Character growth like that I enjoy seeing that leads into more stories.
    "By Earth and Sky, By Craft and Hex -- By The Past and The Future – I Call HOPE Forth From The DARKNESS!
    I Speak The Words We Made Into MAGIC!
    Let THEIR Power Augment Our OWN! To Strike ONE BLOW From Our HEARTS and SOULS – From ALL THAT WE ARE!
    Let The CALL Go Forth --
    AVENGERS! ASSEMBLE!"


    Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff ~~ From Avengers #689!

    Come Join and Learn about Wanda Maximoff at: The Scarlet Witch Appreciation Thread 2021!

  11. #2651
    Incredible Member PlatinumThorns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJStriker View Post
    Just on MCU Wanda, cause I can go all day with Comic Wanda and you know me on that, is that from in this Episode after Wanda finally awoken to the realities of the Hex and pieced together her broken grief in episode 8 that when confronted about its true nature she Let got the people of the town, IMO it makes for more a tragic perfect storm that no one saw coming that lead to these events. But when a character like Wanda comes back to her true self outside of the trappings of the hex on her mind and grief she reverses it and even gives up her own tie to Happiness in letting go of Vision and the Kids to free the town to put right with what went wrong in an unknowing way.

    She even realizes now what her powers can do and takes herself aways to go to try and learn about them and control them far away where no one can get hurt. I felt that was interesting growth their for her charcter too.

    Nothing in writing is smooth or pefect by the end, but I don't expect that anymore, I just enjoy and piece together what I got and in this show it was Majority Solid, so very good on that.

    The ending reminded me of The Incredible Hulk 2008 Edward Norton Hulk ending, same deal of a Marvel Character trying to control a power and learn from it. Character growth like that I enjoy seeing that leads into more stories.
    Wow, 2008 Hulk does have a similar ending lol. I wonder if there's a deeper meaning behind that

  12. #2652
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Wow. I was here like, 24 hours ago....and that's over twenty pages back already. I posted what my theories were, so I could compare with today and see how they lined up. And like I figured, I got most of it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So, my theories, past and present....

    Wanda recovered Vision's body, either repaired but emotionless or still "dead."
    Got this one half right; she did go to recover his body but left it behind.

    She's offered a chance to save his "soul" by some Nightmare/Mephisto style Big Bad (who'd remain in the shadows until the very, very end) and part of the price is them being stuck in a sitcom fantasyland, where Wanda is subtly influenced to give in to the illusion and serve the Big Bad in some way.
    So very wrong on this one.

    Wanda and/or Agatha would look, early on, like the villain.
    Got this one right, though Agnes was actually a villain instead of just appearing to be one, and Wanda is still halfway one.

    We'd get a fight between Wanda and Vision at some point, likely towards the end, and when the credits finish Wanda would head off looking for the Big Bad (leading into Strange 2) or (less likely) be under the Big Bad's influence (leading into Strange 2).
    Surprisingly got this one wrong. Thought for sure we'd see that Wanda/Vision throwdown. And the Strange 2 lead-in wasn't what I expected either.

    I expected to see Quicksilver in either flashback or the fantasyland, but he wouldn't be "back."
    Got this one right, though I didn't expect the Fox version.

    I expected to see the kids, but don't expect them to be "real" and outlive the fantasyland.
    Got this right.

    I expected Vision to end the story dead again, after once more sacrificing himself for others.
    Was both right and wrong here.

    I figured Monica would get roped in via some military agency bent on turning Vision into an obedient weapon, and she'd either get her powers or have them strongly hinted at.
    Got that one right, but it was a pretty easy assumption in the first place.

    Once the show started I thought
    AIM was involved, due to the hexagon shapes and the beekeeper.
    I was proven wrong on this one several episodes ago.

    That the SWORD director (Heywood?) is actually the devilish Big Bad manipulating events (his incompetence seems almost intentional at times)
    Very wrong here, Heyward really was just a incompetent jackass.

    Agatha was working to help Wanda in some way while appearing to serve (or at least avoid) the Big Bad.
    Wrong here; Agatha really was just a villain.

    Fietro has been pulled in from an alternate reality, and as Wanda's brother and a speedster who can possibly think too quickly to be easily mind controlled, as a way to try and help Wanda escape West View.
    SOOO very wrong!!

    My official "big deal cameo appearance" is Ultron. Or at least his program/voice.
    Also wrong, though I only just learned today that the showrunners were walking back all the "guest cameo" talk.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #2653
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    it's a comic accurate deciption of wanda and her narrative.
    abusing her powers, making selfish rash decisions, avoiding any acountability yet the narrative makes sure she's more of a victim than... well the actual victims of her actions.
    Bar for bar the exact essence of wanda maximoff, but in here she's written with way more depth and an active participant, so her journey into anti-hero/questionable morals is actually interesting and enjoyable
    Comic!Wanda got turned into an emotional crazy woman plot device to service Marvel Editorial and has never completely recovered.

    MCU!Wanda, by contrast, seemingly had more actual agency...which arguably makes it worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    For sure, I mean we are talking about Wandas trauma but we are all forgetting about the very real trauma of every citizen trapped. Had the story been told from Dotties perspective what Monica said could be looked at as callous. Was that bit about the citizens necessary or could they have just had Wanda making sure they carry out basics to seem a little humane
    Though I imagine this is a world that hates superheroes and Sentinels won't be too far behind now. And I guess Wanda isn't meant to be a hero anymore after learning from the Darkhold
    Well, Agatha talked about how "heroes don't torture" and the last thing Wanda did to her was sticking her as Agnes...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    The MCU mutants are screwed because by the time they show up even the Avengers are gonna be hated and feared. Hayward’s line line about “powered individuals” earlier in the show point to the idea that people probably blame superheroes for the snap and all the other weird stuff that goes down.
    I mean, Wanda here is basically a precursor to what an Omega Level Mutant is capable of.

    I would not be surprised if the government or general populace get wind of Mutants and start worrying about what happens if one or hundreds end up being the next Wanda Maximoff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    we already got that in CW. Super beings were hated bc of the Avengers actins in AoU. It only make sense that it gets worse from there especially after Infinity War
    And Wanda accidentally caused one of the inciting incidents of Civil War.

    (And she also caused Hulk's rampage, but I'm not sure the general public is aware of that).
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Within the MCU, so many others have done far worse things for which they haven't compensated or made amends, that it's trite to kvetch about Wanda, especially since what she did was reversible and reversed. Yes there'll be trauma and baggage for those people, but that doesn't compare to what others did by intent or indifference:
    -- Tony Stark, Black Widow, had far more blood on their hands.
    -- Hawkeye when he goes Ronin murdered scores of gangsters for five years playing judge, jury, execution.
    -- Hulk on Sakaar killed other gladiatorial contestants, many of them oppressed aliens like him, and indeed likely would have been Korg had Thor not arrived.
    -- Doctor Strange sacrificed Iron Man's life without his knowledge and consent.
    -- Captain Marvel as a Kree soldier committed many war crimes against Skrulls and killed thousands of them.
    -- Thor is the son of a genocidal tyrant, and he himself notes that he killed more than 1000 people in his life.

    Now you can argue that Captain Marvel, like Winter Soldier, was brainwashed and not entirely in control and so on, but that applies to Wanda as well.
    Wanda was in control though. She wasn't brainwashed like the people in Westview were, she was more oblivious.

    And, wow, all the MCU heroes sound terrible when you think about them too much.
    MCU Wanda is framed as a tragic heroine, someone who wished to do good and tried to do good, and has done good, but never truly had control over her life. People either wanted to lock her up or tried to harness her powers or use her, and the few people who made her happy died. Monica underwent the same torture that Wanda's magic placed on everyone and yet she was able to empathize with Wanda and admit that under the same situation she would have done what she did.
    People seem to think Monica's empathy went a little too far by the finale. To the point where she thinks she'd be willing to brainwash and hold a bunch of people hostage to bring her mom back.

    Westview may have been an accident initially but Wanda was eventually in control of it.
    The Fantastic Four are around the corner to revive the good ol'time superhero chair.
    Unless the FF just end up being an outlier to the mystery men and women the general public start turning on.
    Besides, the X-Men don't really need the Avengers or anyone for people to hate or fear them, the reasons why people hate mutants but don't mind getting powers was given a solid answer by Hickman. So world-building wise, this was one hatch that got closed down conclusively.
    It does seem to be leading to an escalating tension between the government and powered people that Mutants will not help in the slightest.

  14. #2654
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    I mean, people are right that many Avengers have blood on their hands. I just hope she becomes more consciously heroic and tries to cause less collateral damage

  15. #2655
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I mean, people are right that many Avengers have blood on their hands. I just hope she becomes more consciously heroic and tries to cause less collateral damage
    The MCU is really dark when you think about it too much. Jeez.

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