Wandavision

[Albert1981]

Well being that we didn't get much of their relationship in the movies, there's no way to know how he really was around her. Most of their moments together were with major things going on in ensemble movies. I found the goofiness charming.

Oh yeah, I agree. I've said it many times on these forums before: MCU Vision is VASTLY superior to BOTH comic book AND cartoon Vision by country miles. I REALLY hope that goofy Vision finds its way into the comic books. I mean there's a literal SEA of cocky arrogant male superheroes in the MCU and Vision is basically a dork. I think that kind of personality suits Wanda perfectly. I'm a little bit concerned about the White Vision thing. If he rebuffs Wanda like he did in the source material, she might not take it well. I hope Feige and company doesn't go this route. I don't want to see both characters damaged like that.

[ZeroBG82]

I was specifically referring to the AoU rampage.

Even before that, Banner's hulk outs were actually pretty rare, only in response to someone attacking him with lethal intent and didn't do much damage.

Translation: Boys will be boys. *shrug*

You completely missed the point of my post just to make a pedantic, and ultimately irrelevant comment, then you proceed to excuse Banner's actions as not that severe.

Meanwhile, people (not necessarily in this thread, mind, but elsewhere) are labeling Wanda a monster. For something she did ONE TIME, in response to losing everything she ever loved, and which did, quite literally, no actual physical damage at all.

And again, I'm not saying Wanda is blameless. Not at all. She absolutely did Westview and it's residents dirty, and that's something that the MCU doesn't forget about moving forward. But Westview only makes her a villain if Banner has been one all along. If Iron Man has been one since AoU, when he created Ultron. It's about perspective, and having a little.

[Frontier]

I feel like the Hulk comparison would be valid if Bruce was conscious of his rampages as The Hulk and let them happen because he's tired of holding it in, although that's not actually the case.

I was just expecting those fights to be a little less PROLONGED. I mean, the Vision fight was pretty creatively settled. I hated seeing Hahn being overwhelmed by Olsen like that. I just liked Agnes so much from the earlier episodes, I felt upset that she was being done that way. I do feel bad for Hahn because she was really in her element as a nosy neighbor/psychiatrist and not as a cardboard villain spouting exposition.

Well, it was all building up to the finale, so I feel like the length was earned.

I thought she was good as a hammy villain, but to each their own. I wasn't quite enamored with them making Agatha a power-hungry witch though.

It felt to me like a beginning for her. Because she hasn't had much time as a hero. And she is just finding out about her powers. And them being something divine that chose her, how to control them and about basic magic. She's still coming of age, even though she's already had her own family.

Beginning as the Scarlet Witch. We have yet to see what the future has in store for her in that respect.

(How long was she an Avenger in-universe? A few months? Close to a year? It's hard to keep track).

And again, I'm not saying Wanda is blameless. Not at all. She absolutely did Westview and it's residents dirty, and that's something that the MCU doesn't forget about moving forward. But Westview only makes her a villain if Banner has been one all along. If Iron Man has been one since AoU, when he created Ultron. It's about perspective, and having a little.

I dunno, I'm getting the sense the MCU is as bad about accountability as the comics can be. It's always on to the next thing rather than really face the consequences of what happened immediately.

[GenericUsername]

I feel like the Hulk comparison would be valid if Bruce was conscious of his rampages as The Hulk and let them happen because he's tired of holding it in, although that's not actually the case.

Beginning as the Scarlet Witch. We have yet to see what the future has in store for her in that respect.

(How long was she an Avenger in-universe? A few months? Close to a year? It's hard to keep track).

I dunno, I'm getting the sense the MCU is as bad about accountability as the comics can be. It's always on to the next thing rather than really face the consequences of what happened immediately.

Wanda was conscious but in distress. I really feel like their paths are similar. They both learn to deal with powers that are hard to control.

I'd like to know what their timescale is in the MCU. There's gotta be someone that's combed through everything and come up with a timeline.

[Frontier]

Wanda was conscious but in distress. I really feel like their paths are similar. They both learn to deal with powers that are hard to control.

I'd like to know what their timescale is in the MCU. There's gotta be someone that's combed through everything and come up with a timeline.

I guess this whole thing comes down to how one views her autonomy and awareness of the Hex, because the show wasn't always necessarily consistent about it.

[GenericUsername]

I guess this whole thing comes down to how one views her autonomy and awareness of the Hex, because the show wasn't always necessarily consistent about it.

I think for most of it she was in denial and not willing to face reality. Several people tried to shake her and she just wasn't ready to face loss. It's definitely portraying her as not emotionally or mentally well.

[CJStriker]

I guess this whole thing comes down to how one views her autonomy and awareness of the Hex, because the show wasn't always necessarily consistent about it.

I think for most of it she was in denial and not willing to face reality. Several people tried to shake her and she just wasn't ready to face loss. It's definitely portraying her as not emotionally or mentally well.

It really does also come down to mental illness, trauma/PTSD or a Disease that effects the mind. They Effect reasoning and rational on a totally different level, we keep talking about someone that goes threw it like it is black and white reasoning, but it is not when the mind is effected by that. That is what we are failing to understand here and what I feel the showrunners where getting at.

The conflicting talk of Wanda and of events are no differnt than that of those that suffer from such Mental Trauma, you can't just rationally speak it away to a person suffering for that. They will move in and out of differnet places in their minds in ways a person not suffering such can't understand, that is what make so devistating and hard to rationalize by the people around them.

It is sadly a problem all societies that is sadly not looked at or addressed enough no matter how much it is tried, it gets ignored cause society does not want to seem to face it enought. It takes time if you even can to reach people that have such and when it comes to diease that do this, you may never reach them again.

That is why when some asked the awareness of the nature of the Hex Wanda Had, she had not true awareness of herself by how broke she really was shown to be by Episode 8, that is why these arguments of she is so Aware until after then don't work in the view of what such condiations truely do. The adjusting nature of the sitcoms can by the symbolizing of that changing nature cause of her broken mental state at many times too. It may sound like that the way she talked to an average viewer, but any sense of knowing such contitions it never is that simple and they change their views and moods and memories on events as quick as the last mood came and at times can forget as well events that happen during such. Such is why it is so complex to deal with in societies even today cause each person is effected differnenlty.

When you have that sense of the condition Wanda was likely in, it makes the nature of her far more understanding in a tragic way she could not escape even if she seemed fine in somepoints, it is the true sadness of such condiations that must at least be worked threw to fix, gladly Wanda had one of those in Episode 8, it was not until then that we got the beginings of true Wanda back.

That is why the question of;

"I guess this whole thing comes down to how one views her autonomy and awareness of the Hex, because the show wasn't always necessarily consistent about it."

Cause Mental Illness and Trauma and Diease is Not ever a consitant mental road that a person without it can grasp threw rationalization, the mind of the victium becomes a storm.

[Daedra]

It really does also come down to mental illness, trauma/PTSD or a Disease that effects the mind. They Effect reasoning and rational on a totally different level, we keep talking about someone that goes threw it like it is black and white reasoning, but it is not when the mind is effected by that. That is what we are failing to understand here and what I feel the showrunners where getting at.

The conflicting talk of Wanda and of events are no differnt than that of those that suffer from such Mental Trauma, you can't just rationally speak it away to a person suffering for that. They will move in and out of differnet places in their minds in ways a person not suffering such can't understand, that is what make so devistating and hard to rationalize by the people around them.

It is sadly a problem all societies that is sadly not looked at or addressed enough no matter how much it is tried, it gets ignored cause society does not want to seem to face it enought. It takes time if you even can to reach people that have such and when it comes to diease that do this, you may never reach them again.

That is why when some asked the awareness of the nature of the Hex Wanda Had, she had not true awareness of herself by how broke she really was shown to be by Episode 8, that is why these arguments of she is so Aware until after then don't work in the view of what such condiations truely do. The adjusting nature of the sitcoms can by the symbolizing of that changing nature cause of her broken mental state at many times too. It may sound like that the way she talked to an average viewer, but any sense of knowing such contitions it never is that simple and they change their views and moods and memories on events as quick as the last mood came and at times can forget as well events that happen during such. Such is why it is so complex to deal with in societies even today cause each person is effected differnenlty.

When you have that sense of the condition Wanda was likely in, it makes the nature of her far more understanding in a tragic way she could not escape even if she seemed fine in somepoints, it is the true sadness of such condiations that must at least be worked threw to fix, gladly Wanda had one of those in Episode 8, it was not until then that we got the beginings of true Wanda back.

That is why the question of;

"I guess this whole thing comes down to how one views her autonomy and awareness of the Hex, because the show wasn't always necessarily consistent about it."

Cause Mental Illness and Trauma and Diease is Not ever a consitant mental road that a person without it can grasp threw rationalization, the mind of the victium becomes a storm.

great post CJ I think this sums it up pretty accurately, looking for consistence in a self inflicted chaos magic induced delusion + a major depressive episode is never going to work. I think some people just wanted this to turn into their own version of the mcu but the writers have their plans and their reasons and the show did accomplish to deliver the status quo the writers wanted, so many others (especially the one non familiar with comics) just enjoyed it for the adventure it was and got a much more satisfying viewing experience out of it.
In my opinion the intent with wandavision was to bring us viewers across a new narrative river but this ride was not meant to reach the proverbial "other side", we were left in the middle of it all because the movies are going to be the missing puzzle piece. This is all just an "entrée" and the covid crisis kind of widened the supposed gap between the servings, impatience has not a point.

[Blind Wedjat]

Comic book movie discussion is always so frustrating because either people oversimplify things (because being a contrarian cynic is in) or overcomplicate things (because being a contrarian cynic is in).

Wanda won her fight against Agatha by outsmarting her, not overpowering her. Even though Wanda possessed more raw power, Agatha was a lot more skilled. Wanda fooled and outsmarted Agatha by giving her the chaos magic power while creating the runes around the Hex without Agatha realising it. Her blasting Agatha wasn't how she won but a distraction. Now sure it's still a big CGI fight at the end, but it wasn't just one person firing lasers at another person until one of them gave up. It's also a bit funny to me how everyone latched onto the actors' words in this show and used it to form their fan theories, but now everyone's suddenly forgotten that Paul Bettany repeatedly said the finale was going to be standard MCU.

Wanda created the Hex by accident out of overwhelming grief and sadness. She did not know how she did it, but knew that she did do it. She also ignored the negative sides of the Hex because confronting them would mean she did something wrong for her own selfish purposes. But that doesn't mean she would have known then without Agatha's 'help' how to actually bring down the Hex. It was only through that trip down memory lane that Wanda knew she created the Hex, how she did it and therefore how to end it. That doesn't make her a complete monster nor a saint. She should be allowed to be complex, because she is a traumatised and grieving human being with unimaginable power. There's nothing wrong with having a nuanced view about what she did, but today everyone either wants to be the person absolutely demonising a thing or the one blindly defending it.

What Wanda did was wrong, but she didn't mean to do it and kept it going because of her own issues. In the real world lots of people with their own mental health issues do things they shouldn't do. It's not an excuse nor does it make things right, but they do it either because they're all flawed like everyone else. Their flaws are just bigger. That's all it has to be.

[Sutekh]

Comic book movie discussion is always so frustrating because either people oversimplify things (because being a contrarian cynic is in) or overcomplicate things (because being a contrarian cynic is in).

Wanda won her fight against Agatha by outsmarting her, not overpowering her. Even though Wanda possessed more raw power, Agatha was a lot more skilled. Wanda fooled and outsmarted Agatha by giving her the chaos magic power while creating the runes around the Hex without Agatha realising it. Her blasting Agatha wasn't how she won but a distraction. Now sure it's still a big CGI fight at the end, but it wasn't just one person firing lasers at another person until one of them gave up. It's also a bit funny to me how everyone latched onto the actors' words in this show and used it to form their fan theories, but now everyone's suddenly forgotten that Paul Bettany repeatedly said the finale was going to be standard MCU.

Wanda created the Hex by accident out of overwhelming grief and sadness. She did not know how she did it, but knew that she did do it. She also ignored the negative sides of the Hex because confronting them would mean she did something wrong for her own selfish purposes. But that doesn't mean she would have known then without Agatha's 'help' how to actually bring down the Hex. It was only through that trip down memory lane that Wanda knew she created the Hex, how she did it and therefore how to end it. That doesn't make her a complete monster nor a saint. She should be allowed to be complex, because she is a traumatised and grieving human being with unimaginable power. There's nothing wrong with having a nuanced view about what she did, but today everyone either wants to be the person absolutely demonising a thing or the one blindly defending it.

What Wanda did was wrong, but she didn't mean to do it and kept it going because of her own issues. In the real world lots of people with their own mental health issues do things they shouldn't do. It's not an excuse nor does it make things right, but they do it either because they're all flawed like everyone else. Their flaws are just bigger. That's all it has to be.

Great post. It's really easy to overstate things and get all worked up with fake outrage over this fictional character and her fictional actions, but, at the end of the day, it's not terribly productive.

[Blind Wedjat]

Great post. It's really easy to overstate things and get all worked up with fake outrage over this fictional character and her fictional actions, but, at the end of the day, it's not terribly productive.

To be fair, I'm not saying you can't ever discuss these things, but I feel like a part of media criticism these days usually deals with people trying to find something that is 'problematic'. Just this week Taylor Swift criticised a Netflix show for what she perceived as a sexist joke about her, ignoring all the context that the character that made said joke was intended to have less-than-stellar ideals in the first, which promptly led to Swift facing backlash for opening up the actress to online bullying. Or better yet, some people like to look at popular media through an eye that looks for examples of systematic oppression. Sometimes it's a good thing, like how Jennifer's Body has been rightfully revised as a feminist story and not a male-gaze, sexy horror film. But sometimes it's just bogus, like people claiming Sharpay Evans was a victim in High School Musical simply because she was a "strong woman type", ignoring the fact that she was absolutely a gate-keeping, theatre-kid elitist.

I don't think you're supposed to watch that finale and applaud Wanda. I do think the end did try to wrap things up nicely with a bow a bit too much, but I do think you're supposed to at some level understand why Wanda did what she did (even though she didn't have full control over it). Trying to paint her as a monster or say she did nothing wrong is in my opinion, missing the point.

[Ferro]

Time truly is a circle... same discourse difrent eras and series

[zvrk]

It's the human nature: cyclical and repetitional.

[Albert1981]

I am well aware these are fictional characters in a fictional universe and our ideals about morality and ethics might not apply in and to them. But I think that's a cop-out. Star Trek, the Twilight Zone and even Quantum Leap dealt with these issues in a somewhat reasonable and realistic way. Why can't the MCU? Not saying Marvel Studios should be telling people what's right and wrong, but I think solving problems through massive CGI battles in third acts is just boring and repetitive.

I haven't read many other reactions yet but the ending of WandaVision was definitely a disappointment after a very strong season overall. The creators of the show proposed such interesting ideas and concepts so unusual for a superhero project, and just totally stumbled over the finish line in my opinion.

I feel they came on too strong with Agatha at the end. Maintaining some subtlety even when it was revealed she was the "villain" would have helped a lot.. And yeah Agatha's plan seemed both elaborate and non-sensical. And by turning Agatha into a cartoon villain the last two episodes, it made it seem the writers wanted us to think Wanda was the good person when she had mentally and physically violated an entire town. If they wanted to portray Wanda as a "grey" character then don't just put her next to a pure black/white character in the final episode. Like I said, I feel really bad with what they did to Hahn. Almost as bad as what the show did to Stamberg (Hayward).

Good and entertaining season, but weak finish. And unfortunately the weak finish does take away a bit from the earlier episodes. That's the downside when you don't stick the landing in a mystery.

[Albert1981]

And here's a post about how Wanda "dealt" with Agatha at the end of Episode 9 that I largely agree with:

"How do you feel about Wanda inflicting that horrific punishment on Agatha at the end? Perhaps she's not as noble as you want her to be.

As others have noted, she's shown self-awareness numerous times throughout the show, and even at the end, after everything, she still chooses to repeat the same sin against Agatha.

And what is Agatha supposed to do now? She's literally homeless. Where is this fictional character meant to live? She's not from Westview.

And you may retort that a SWORD prison could not hold a powerful witch, but the writers could have pulled out any other spell out of their ass to ensure Agatha was neutralized. They chose to have Wanda repeat the assault of another person's mind and body without their consent. AGAIN. No lessons learned for Wanda.

I like the interesting discussions such a character can provoke, but I always do a double-take at people defending her actions in this story. She's a selfish character. And that's ok. It makes her interesting. Especially now that her fate is in her own hands instead of others.

What she did was inexcusable though (just like what Loki did to NY was), and claiming 'she didn't fully know' is not only a flimsy excuse, but actively betrays her character arc in the story. If she didn't fully know, then what's the point of telling this story in the first place? If she only woke up in the climax of the tale, then what even was her journey?

Every time she rewrote or manipulated her reality, from episode 1 onwards, she knew where she was and what she was doing. She chose to pretend nobody was being hurt, until Agatha's mob gave her no choice but to relent.

I look forward to other more capable writers handling her character and providing us with a more tonally and thematically consistent journey."

The show ruined the earlier wonderful dynamic between Olsen and Hahn for me.