Wandavision

[Lucyinthesky]

Agree with all of your above points.

Thanks I agree with other posters in wanting to see Wanda as the main hero in her first starring series, I think marvel could have done that well, like they have done in the past but the MCU also wanted to explore her comic self powers and her powers come in a big way from Chton, an evil elder god who wrote the book in dark magic and has used Wanda as his link to earth twice in the comics. The MCU can´t address Wanda´s witch powers without addresing the origin of said powers and the danger inherent in them. I am hopeful her character journey will be about her freeing herself from a bad destiny. The only thing I didn´t agree is trying to absolver her, her character journey is not going to be genuine if the narrative keeps absolving her from the consequences, good and bad of her actions. She needs to address the danger of her powers and the consequences of this danger , specially in an scenario like Westview where she didn´t hurt people physically but emotionally, so she can learn to control them, stop herself from doing that in the future and mature as an heroic character in her own right.

[Daedra]

I think the show was ok, it would have been better if they didn´t use Monica to try to absolve Wanda, it wasn´t really neccesary and that just made Wanda and Monica look bad, I would have liked if they decided to work together at the end and help wanda control her powers or Wanda helping to rebuild the town, that would have been a lot better than that line. But well Monica is going to go to Ms Marvel movie while Wanda will have her MoM movie.

I don’t feel like this is fair to Monica’s character, no one is even taking the time to understand were she’s coming from, she just discovered her mother died of cancer while she was gone due to the snap, it must have felt to her like abandoning her mother in the worst moment of her life, just imagine the feeling ......I know it would have made me sick to my stomach ....she was very honest especially with herself when she said that given the power she would have done the same and her lack of a judgemental attitude was actually refreshing for once.

[gurkle]

I think one reason most Wanda fans have reacted better to the series than me is that it really does seem to be pointing the way towards Chthon. I mean we’ve got chaos magic + the Darkhold + Wanda’s destiny to destroy the world. If I were a bigger fan of the Chthon lore I’d be excited too.

I suspect though that if this is their plan we’re less likely to see it in Strange 2 than in WandaVision 2 or whatever it’s called (there’s no way they don’t make another).

[Lucyinthesky]

Yes, I know she was grieving her mother too but you can be understanding and not judgmental while at the same time tell Wanda what happened wasn´t right, this is what Vision did bassically a few chapters before and no one thought he was being callous or unfair with Wanda. The word she used made it seem like the Town people were wrong in disliking or fearing Wanda when they were begging her to kill them a few minutes ago instead of keeping living like that. I think it send the wrong message and it wasn´t really neccesary after Wanda herself addmited she did wrong and sacrificed her family to free them.

Something more subtle like "You can come with me if you want to or if you need help, you can aske me" I think would have worked better with Monica.

[Ferro]

id love to have chton but since they didnt even bother with the vishanti when they are a key component of what makes a sorcerer supreme, turning the eye of AGAMOTHO into the time stone, I don't see chton :/
Willing to be surprised tho

[GenericUsername]

I'm personally not sure Chthon will be around. Maybe as a presence but nothing outright. It's certainly a villain they could explore later if they wanted. But for now I expect DS2 will be mostly about Strange and his villains, and support cast. I think the cause of where Wanda's children are and what Strange will have to deal with will overlap. I just feel better about it because this journey has Wanda as the main character, her narrative outfront. She's going through this journey, learning about her powers, learning how to deal with her grief. And I do believe she will come out of all of this better.

[teapartyofthedead]

I hurt my arm the day before WandaVision’s finale aired. I got too enthusiastic at the gym, and I paid the price with a right arm that erupted in agony anytime I though about moving it. I ended up having to conserve my energy for schoolwork, especially since so much was due the next day. It forced me to have to think my reaction to the finale through, instead of popping off the second I finished watching it.

I’m honestly afraid for Wanda. I have a terrible feeling she’s going to be the villain of Doctor Strange’s movie. Worse, it’s for much the same reason she was deemed a villain in the comics as well: too powerful, baby crazy, and unwilling to clean up her own mess or even acknowledge it.

The entire town gathers around her, begging her for mercy. Sarah/Dottie’s asking to hold her daughter again even at the cost of said daughter being forced to play the bully to Tommy and Billy brought tears to my eyes. Debra Jo Rupp asking to be freed or killed was chilling. But Wanda only insists they must be confused, they should feel peace. When they continue to challenge them, she chokes them out and has to be coaxed to let them go. That entire scene underscores exactly why Wanda has been discredited as a hero for so long in the comics. Heroes aren’t supposed to torture people, nor fly away after all is said and done without actually apologizing to those people. The only one who gets even that is Monica, who is far too forgiving. I wish we could have seen more from her, even just pushing back against Wanda’s denials, because it feels like she was just here to make the white woman feel better about all the horrible things she did.

Losing Vision, Tommy, and Billy isn’t even punishment for all of it. Vision has now been revived, in possession of his memories, and out of SWORD’s control. Tommy and Billy are alive in the multiverse somewhere, and hopefully to be found. Don’t get me wrong, my heart broke watching Wanda and Mind Gem Vision putting the boys the bed. But I fear that the act of recovering her children is exactly why she’s going to be the villain of Multiverse of Madness, just like she was in the comics.

Wanda got to fly away unharmed, with the Darkhold in hand, and a nifty new costume. She never had to work at giving restitution for her transgressions against Westview. Monica’s line about Wanda making a sacrifice rang so hollow, and it made it that much worse. That entire town has been through hell, and they will never see their tormentor face justice. It is the height of narcissism and callousness for Wanda to not even try to atone for it, or promise to try once she has her powers under control.

It’s hard not to see this entire series as setting Wanda up as a villain that has to be taken down. By Strange, who is constantly being held as being above her in every way as a hero no matter how hard he screw up, too. After seeing the same in Empyre.

Even seeing a DBZ like witch battle and Vision letting loose for a few minutes wasn’t enough to make this okay. If they made Agatha Harkness, Wanda’s mentor, a villain, why not Wanda? Speaking of, is Agatha just going to live in Ralph Boehner’s house from now on? Or be a homeless woman with no ID or birth certificate? Is SWORD going to take care of that, like everything else?

It also did Pietro dirty. If all this was merely Evan Peters being stunt casted to draw in viewers, I would have preferred Pietro not show up at all. Just show flashbacks of Aaron Taylor Johnson, and continue to say Wanda can’t bring him back anymore than she could Sparky. There was no need to mock his fans by dangling the idea of his return, just to reveal it was all an elaborate dick joke.

They couldn’t even come up with a plausible way for him to survive contact with the Mind stone. He’s never been a warlock, so why did he not die that day? Also, how did Agatha give Ralph super speed if it takes an Infinity stone to do it the first time around? Was the attic somehow proof against Wanda’s hex, and that’s why Ralph’s photo as an actor from his real life still existed instead of becoming a business card?

I know the show runners planned his inclusion early on, but it feels like they clumsily shoved it in as insurance that people would watch the show in hopes of the multiverse opening up. If they had the courage to let the show stand on its own, I imagine the show would be better for it. All that time Fietro was on could be replaced with scenes of Tommy and Billy trying to find other children only to find there are none and asking why, or exploring the the town and awakening other townies the way Vision did to learn the truth. Or give more time to Monica, Jimmy, and Darcy.

I wasn’t one of those people who demanded that the Fox canon somehow be ported over the MCU whole. I thought Magneto, Reed, or even Mephisto making an appearance was a long shot since it just didn’t make sense. I didn’t even believe the rumors of Evan Peters being casted until the trailer leaked. I had planned to watch the show for Wanda and the hope of seeing Tommy and Billy when it had been announced. I even subscribed to D+ for it. There was no need to put in an ultimately pointless and insulting joke just to get me to watch.

This is all such a shame, since the show had so much going for it. I loved the way it faithfully mimicked the sitcom styles of the last century. The music and setting was top notch. The actors were brilliant. Kathryn Hahn stole the show entirely, with Paul Bettany a close second. But this show did not do Wanda many favors beyond a raised profile and a new costume. Pietro is still dead, and apparently Marvel thinks that’s hilarious. I don’t know if Marvel even cares to find a way to course correct, since they got what they wanted out of it: viewing and attention. The promise that this show would work hard to avoid the hysterical powerful villainess trope seems to have only been a disclaimer to avoid dealing with how they made Wanda a powerful hysterical villainess.

I’m getting burned out with Marvel. They keep treating the Maximoff twins like crap, and expecting their fans to be grateful for the attention. My one hope is that the raised profile will lead to a larger fan base for them that will demand better for them both in the movies and the comics.

[Drops Of Venus]

On the whole subject of how Wanda punished Agatha.... I don't get people feeling sorry for Agatha or acting like Wanda was some monster for it. Let's recap Agatha's behavior:

- She could've easily stopped her coven and mother back in the 1600s, but chose to kill all of them for power
- She came into Westview knowing very well what was going on, but never made any attempt to help anyone
- She had no issue mind controlling people (Herb, Ralph), and unlike Wanda, she didn't do that by accident or without full conscience of what it was doing to people
- She killed a dog.... just because
- She tricked Vision into leaving Westview, even though that would kill him; she deliberately wanted Wanda and her family to be in distress
- She held Tommy and Billy hostage literally by their neck and slammed them against the floor, showing she had no qualm about hurting children if it meant getting what she wanted
- She had no qualm about seriously injuring or potentially killing all of those S.W.O.R.D. soldiers by dropping them from a considerable height
- She wanted to absorb Wanda's powers to herself, knowing this would drain Wanda of her own life force; she could've taught Wanda how to control those abilities, but she specifically wanted to hurt Wanda to get them

She did all of this for her own personal gain. And sure, Wanda did it too... but the show made it pretty clear how they are different from each other. Wanda had remorse and regret over her actions. She was selfless in the end and did the right thing when she realized how much pain she had caused. Agatha was that bitch who would probably do it all over again, because she didn't care about anyone but herself.

So... how do you handle someone like her? Wanda obviously couldn't just let her go so she would torment other people for her own gain. You can't just throw her in normal jail, because she is powerful enough to get out of there in a second. You can't punish someone like Agatha with anything other than magic. And not just ANY magic, but magic that is specifically more powerful than hers. Chaos magic. Wanda could've done a billion horrible things to her.... and she decided to punish her by letting her live a normal life walking freely in Westview, being conditioned to be nice and welcoming to other people. Sure, stripping her of her free will is definitely morally questionable, but when a person uses their free will to hurt and kill and basically do ANYTHING just for power, is it REALLY that horrible to force them to not do that anymore? And it's not like Wanda just abandoned her there; she made it clear she would come back to see her. So unlike what happened before in Westview, she can now be more careful about the effects her magic has on Agatha by checking on her regularly.

It's like the Pleasant Hill discussion in the comics: S.H.I.E.L.D. was wrong for taking the free will away from the villains they imprisoned, but were they wrong for giving them a happy, healthy life in an alternate dimension where they would be good people and productive members of society, without hurting anyone? Or Emma Frost's recent actions in Marauders when she used her mind control powers to force bigots to not be bigots anymore. Is she a horrible person for making sure that people who would not hesitate to shoot and kill mutants on sight would not do that anymore, even if it comes at the expense of their own free will? I think it's a very morally gray kind of punishment. You can argue it's wrong, but it's done for the right reasons. In a cinematic universe where villains get killed off all the time for their actions, Agatha's punishment ended up being as humane as it gets.

Not how logic works. That's a classic fallacy called "disproving a negative"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden...ing_a_negative

Not how burden of proof works. You came in here AFFIRMING the show indicates Wanda is a mutant, but couldn't prove that with any factual evidence. You asking anyone else to prove that you're wrong if you can't even prove that you're right in the first place is also a logic fallacy.

I think she’s kidding (especially since Dottie, the mailman, etc don’t even exist now that they’re back to normal) but it does bring up another of the many unaddressed points: what exactly is “Agnes” doing in the real Westview, where her TV persona doesn’t fit? Wanda said no one would bother her so she might just be invisible, but we’ll never know until she inevitably comes back.

Wanda said she would play the role she created for herself... I think making her invisible to everyone would kind of prevent that, no? If she's gonna be the nosy neighbor, people need to see and know she's there. Agatha was living on Ralph's house, so my assumption is that he was basically going to be stuck with her now. My headcanon is that he takes care of her now and make sure she doesn't break the spell. If she does anything too weird, Ralph calls Wanda for help.

[LordUltimus]

I really, really, really doubt that after all this Marvel Studios will turn Wanda into a villain. They'll keep teasing it for now, but the whole "end of the world" thing is almost certainly a misdirect. Maybe some reality reboot they're hinting at.

[Rang10]

I really, really, really doubt that after all this Marvel Studios will turn Wanda into a villain. They'll keep teasing it for now, but the whole "end of the world" thing is almost certainly a misdirect. Maybe some reality reboot they're hinting at.

That is a common trope; noting to do with being a villain.

[Daedra]

I really, really, really doubt that after all this Marvel Studios will turn Wanda into a villain. They'll keep teasing it for now, but the whole "end of the world" thing is almost certainly a misdirect. Maybe some reality reboot they're hinting at.

She will end the world of phase 2 so that we will finally move on to the world of phase 3

[GenericUsername]

I’m honestly afraid for Wanda. I have a terrible feeling she’s going to be the villain of Doctor Strange’s movie. Worse, it’s for much the same reason she was deemed a villain in the comics as well: too powerful, baby crazy, and unwilling to clean up her own mess or even acknowledge it.

I can understand this fear. Especially after what comics did. But I don't think they are telling the same story here. I think Wanda will learn to control her powers so they aren't attacking people every time she feels a negative emotion.

The entire town gathers around her, begging her for mercy. Sarah/Dottie’s asking to hold her daughter again even at the cost of said daughter being forced to play the bully to Tommy and Billy brought tears to my eyes. Debra Jo Rupp asking to be freed or killed was chilling. But Wanda only insists they must be confused, they should feel peace. That entire scene underscores exactly why Wanda has been discredited as a hero for so long in the comics. Heroes aren’t supposed to torture people, nor fly away after all is said and done without actually apologizing to those people. The only one who gets even that is Monica, who is far too forgiving. I wish we could have seen more from her, even just pushing back against Wanda’s denials, because it feels like she was just here to make the white woman feel better about all the horrible things she did.

I understand this as well, but it's more complicated than that. Her grief caused her powers to do this. She thought she was keeping them in a safe world where they felt happier like she did. It took a lot of convincing of her that it was the opposite. Because she just hadn't gotten through the stages of grief. They were never depicting her doing it out of malice. But it being a result of her grief. It's something she'll have to learn to control.

Losing Vision, Tommy, and Billy isn’t even punishment for all of it. Vision has now been revived, in possession of his memories, and out of SWORD’s control. Tommy and Billy are alive in the multiverse somewhere, and hopefully to be found. Don’t get me wrong, my heart broke watching Wanda and Mind Gem Vision putting the boys the bed. But I fear that the act of recovering her children is exactly why she’s going to be the villain of Multiverse of Madness, just like she was in the comics.

Vision has his memories, but not his emotions. And didn't go off to find Wanda, but figure out himself. Their relationship will probably never be the same.

Wanda got to fly away unharmed, with the Darkhold in hand, and a nifty new costume. She never had to work at giving restitution for her transgressions against Westview. Monica’s line about Wanda making a sacrifice rang so hollow, and it made it that much worse. That entire town has been through hell, and they will never see their tormentor face justice. It is the height of narcissism and callousness for Wanda to not even try to atone for it, or promise to try once she has her powers under control.

The show is over but the plot hasn't reached any resolution. The showrunner said this is just the beginning of her story. It is like when Hulk went to that cabin at the end of his movie to reflect.

It’s hard not to see this entire series as setting Wanda up as a villain that has to be taken down. By Strange, who is constantly being held as being above her in every way as a hero no matter how hard he screw up, too. After seeing the same in Empyre.

I don't see that as what they are doing. Especially since it does not match up to the Strange synopsis.

Even seeing a DBZ like witch battle and Vision letting loose for a few minutes wasn’t enough to make this okay. If they made Agatha Harkness, Wanda’s mentor, a villain, why not Wanda? Speaking of, is Agatha just going to live in Ralph Boehner’s house from now on? Or be a homeless woman with no ID or birth certificate? Is SWORD going to take care of that, like everything else?

They did cover that while Wanda did this indirectly due to her grief, Agatha did all she did on purpose.

It also did Pietro dirty. If all this was merely Evan Peters being stunt casted to draw in viewers, I would have preferred Pietro not show up at all. Just show flashbacks of Aaron Taylor Johnson, and continue to say Wanda can’t bring him back anymore than she could Sparky. There was no need to mock his fans by dangling the idea of his return, just to reveal it was all an elaborate dick joke.

I feel really bad for Pietro. And worry the most about his future.

[gurkle]

I’m honestly afraid for Wanda. I have a terrible feeling she’s going to be the villain of Doctor Strange’s movie. Worse, it’s for much the same reason she was deemed a villain in the comics as well: too powerful, baby crazy, and unwilling to clean up her own mess or even acknowledge it.

I share your fear, though it’s not definitive (they haven’t announced an antagonist for Strange 2 yet but Agatha and Hayward weren’t announced as antagonists either). Mostly I think the creators in the MCU, like in comics, find Wanda “interesting” when she screws up. I find her more interesting as a hero but they’ve made it pretty clear that her powers were not meant to help people. She found out that what she thought was fun happy play-acting was actually total hell, and that her powers reach out on their own and choke people who question her.

Maybe they can get her through this and emerge a better person in the end, but it’s clear that she’s practically the only hero who isn’t treated like she was meant to be a hero, and that saddens me.

[GenericUsername]

She will end the world of phase 2 so that we will finally move on to the world of phase 3

I don't think that prophecy will even come to pass. But just be something she always has to fight to keep from happening. Meant to mirror how her chthonic powers in comics are so strong that she always has to work to keep them in check. Because she's wielding the fraction of the power of an elder god and she's a mortal.

[bretmaverick2]

This was actually my favorite Marvel Studios project to date!

I don’t pick these projects apart like a lot of folks. I just watch and enjoy.

This was a solid and fun ‘watch’ all the way through.