Wandavision

[Albert1981]

It is a nice way if life, glad you liked it, Wanda thought me that around here in these parts, love for her character is about patience, revaluations and faith.

I hope your faith is rewarded! Wanda deserves to be treated like the queen that she is.

[Lucyinthesky]

Well for the record I like Wanda, I just think Monica didn´t need to talk as if westview residents were somehow at fault for not feeling bad for her, it´s way more complicated than that imo and it sounded OC to me coming from her.

I don´t care about Tony tbh the MCU would do well stopping showing villains obsessed with Tony and no, I don´t think Wanda is going to become the next Thanos, I am just making the observation that Wanda was reading directly from the Darkhold, a book that at the best of times can make people lose their mind, it´s no wonder Wanda is already earing her children screaming at her for help but are they her children or it´s something else? At worst that book can possess anyone, so my point was more about how the MCU will tackle that part of Wanda´s lore, because in the comics, she was cursed by Chton to help in bringing him back and I was actually surprised the MCU went there, because they tend to prefer more Science over magic stories but now with Agatha, Wanda and the Darkhold it looks like they are ready to expand beyond Sciente type of narratives and I am happy and excited to see what else will they bring in MoM.

I think Wanda porbably will be an antogonist to Dr Strange but not evil, more like she wants to keep learning about her powers while he thinks is too dangerous the method she´s using but I don´t think she will be the villain in MoM.

[Vegeta]

Sorry that Monica didn't get to single-handedly save the day, but she did contribute in the best way that she could. It was Wanda's story, other characters can help her out, but ultimately she needed to succeed on her own in order to have a proper arc.

The purpose of Monica's presence was to establish who she is as an adult. We learned that she is determined, empathetic, willing to risk her own life to save others. That was plenty emotional for me.

Honestly, you can lift Monica right out of the finale and it wouldn't change a thing. She was superfluous to the resolution of the story.

[ZeroBG82]

I understand Monica was being emphatic. But I think she didn't weigh the needs of the community of Westview enough in my mind. Here is a comment that I PARTLY agree with (I'm just as biased as Drops of Venus in loving Wanda, but that doesn't mean I think what she did in Westview was right) and is one of the reasons why I was dismayed by Rambeau's behavior in Episode 9:

"Wanda literally tortured thousands of people for a week. then tried to gaslight them into accepting the shitty life they gave them. They were begging to be killed rather than have to be put up with her ****. And the resolution is, she just flies away and completely avoids accountability. Now, that not bad in and of itself, it’s cool to have a heroic character be so broken. But then you’ve got Monica, the voice of reason, giving Wanda a pass because Wanda was grieving. How many people get a pass for enslaving thousands after a loved one dies? Talk about witch privilege. It’s cool that Monica was empathetic, but what are her ideals? What about the pain, suffering and trauma that Wanda put on the townspeople of Westview? Why doesn’t Monica care about them? Why is it cool for Wanda to just run away? “They’ll never know what you sacrificed?” No, and they shouldn’t. They were just forced to endure a pain so torturous, that they wanted to die- all so that Wanda could enjoy her fake family. Why should they give a **** if Wanda loses her fake family in the end? To them, Wanda is the undeniable villain of this story."

I admire Monica's empathy for Wanda, but I'm not thrilled that she isn't extending that same empathy to the people of Westview (who are entirely blameless). I think she looks very foolish in my opinion. I absolutely disagree with how the show portrayed Wanda. I wasn't worried at first before the show started airing, but I'm worried now about her future. I wish she could have dealt with her grief and sorrow in a much less destructive way. And I hold the House of M storyline responsible for inspiring what happened in Westview.

So how do you feel about the Avengers and Bruce Banner? Banner gets angry, turns into the Hulk, and people get hurt. ALL THE TIME. Not just once. The Avengers give Banner a pass, because they understand what he's going through, because they know he isn't fully in control of his actions when he does so, and quite frankly because what are you going to do about it even if you wanted to? Does that mean they don't care about the people harmed by the Hulk? Every time they try assuage Banner's guilt for turning into the beast, should they be shown spending hours chatting with Hulk survivors and being shown empathizing with them so they don't look foolish? Hell, in AoU Hulk rampages through a population center in Africa to the point that Tony calls in the Hulkbuster to stop him and yet Black Widow is ACTIVELY TURNING BANNER BACK INTO THE HULK less than an hour of screentime later for the final battle (and even does so against Banner's wishes). Are Tony and Nat foolish or any less heroic?

I think there are three points to consider.

First, the conversation was between Monica and Wanda, not Monica and Westview's residents. In terms of what you have time to show in the narrative, you let your conversation be between the characters having it. The audience knows full well that Monica cares about Westview's residents, she has spent five weeks struggling to free them from the Hex. It's not something that needed to come up during that discussion.

Second, Monica is speaking to the audience. Wanda deserves blame here, but there are naunces that should be looked at. When the moment came, Wanda did the heroic thing, even at tremendous personal cost to herself. That speaks to Wanda as a character, and was important to have called out for the audience. (Also, in recognizing that I actually think it shows Monica as perceptive and able to see more than one side of the issue, which actually shows that Monica is ideally suited for a role like Director of SWORD, for example.)

And third, in universe, what choice does Monica have? How exactly is she supposed to hold Wanda accountable? It's the Banner problem. How do you hold Banner accountable for the Hulk? Do you rail at him and scream? He'll just turn green again and you have a whole new set of problems. The best way to approach Wanda right now is as a friend, as someone who understands and empathizes. Someone who can steer Wanda towards a healthier approach, and down the road we can talk about accountability, when she's less fragile. Go too hard at Wanda right now and you run the risk of the Hex looking like a sad opening act.

[GenericUsername]

ACTUALLY....that looked like another Referance to Wanda from the Busiek Era of Avenger, Vol. 3, Issue #13!

This is Just Wanda being her Strangely Lovely Meditating Self!

I miss her curly hair so much.

[Daedra]

So how do you feel about the Avengers and Bruce Banner? Banner gets angry, turns into the Hulk, and people get hurt. ALL THE TIME. Not just once. The Avengers give Banner a pass, because they understand what he's going through, because they know he isn't fully in control of his actions when he does so, and quite frankly because what are you going to do about it even if you wanted to? Does that mean they don't care about the people harmed by the Hulk? Every time they try assuage Banner's guilt for turning into the beast, should they be shown spending hours chatting with Hulk survivors and being shown empathizing with them so they don't look foolish? Hell, in AoU Hulk rampages through a population center in Africa to the point that Tony calls in the Hulkbuster to stop him and yet Black Widow is ACTIVELY TURNING BANNER BACK INTO THE HULK less than an hour of screentime later for the final battle (and even does so against Banner's wishes). Are Tony and Nat foolish or any less heroic?

I think there are three points to consider.

First, the conversation was between Monica and Wanda, not Monica and Westview's residents. In terms of what you have time to show in the narrative, you let your conversation be between the characters having it. The audience knows full well that Monica cares about Westview's residents, she has spent five weeks struggling to free them from the Hex. It's not something that needed to come up during that discussion.

Second, Monica is speaking to the audience. Wanda deserves blame here, but there are naunces that should be looked at. When the moment came, Wanda did the heroic thing, even at tremendous personal cost to herself. That speaks to Wanda as a character, and was important to have called out for the audience. (Also, in recognizing that I actually think it shows Monica as perceptive and able to see more than one side of the issue, which actually shows that Monica is ideally suited for a role like Director of SWORD, for example.)

And third, in universe, what choice does Monica have? How exactly is she supposed to hold Wanda accountable? It's the Banner problem. How do you hold Banner accountable for the Hulk? Do you rail at him and scream? He'll just turn green again and you have a whole new set of problems. The best way to approach Wanda right now is as a friend, as someone who understands and empathizes. Someone who can steer Wanda towards a healthier approach, and down the road we can talk about accountability, when she's less fragile. Go too hard at Wanda right now and you run the risk of the Hex looking like a sad opening act.

Very well said, also I loved the fact that Monica did not act all judgmental but instead she admitted that given the chance and the power she would have done the same to see her mother again, it was a very humane thing to admit, yes humans have flaws.....imagine that.

Could you elaborate on what you're thinking here?

Because I don't think I agree. Monica is empathetic. Monica has also just lost someone she loved. She acknowledges that if she had Wanda's powers she would have wanted to do the same thing. But she also gets that Wanda had to give up her husband and children in order to free Westview. Wanda inadvertently did a terrible thing, but when she realized it she CHOSE to do the unselfish thing even though it came with a personal cost. Would you have paid that cost? Would most people? Or would you have held on to what was yours fiercely and defiantly and to hell with anybody else and their pain?

I don't feel like Monica seeing that and putting it forward does anything to diminish or change Monica as a character.

I could not agree more, I believe you really get the point of the whole dynamic

[GenericUsername]

Well for the record I like Wanda, I just think Monica didn´t need to talk as if westview residents were somehow at fault for not feeling bad for her, it´s way more complicated than that imo and it sounded OC to me coming from her.

I don´t care about Tony tbh the MCU would do well stopping showing villains obsessed with Tony and no, I don´t think Wanda is going to become the next Thanos, I am just making the observation that Wanda was reading directly from the Darkhold, a book that at the best of times can make people lose their mind, it´s no wonder Wanda is already earing her children screaming at her for help but are they her children or it´s something else? At worst that book can possess anyone, so my point was more about how the MCU will tackle that part of Wanda´s lore, because in the comics, she was cursed by Chton to help in bringing him back and I was actually surprised the MCU went there, because they tend to prefer more Science over magic stories but now with Agatha, Wanda and the Darkhold it looks like they are ready to expand beyond Sciente type of narratives and I am happy and excited to see what else will they bring in MoM.

I think Wanda porbably will be an antogonist to Dr Strange but not evil, more like she wants to keep learning about her powers while he thinks is too dangerous the method she´s using but I don´t think she will be the villain in MoM.

I don't think antagonist but he probably will clue her into a lot of things about her powers and likely train her a bit to control them. Wanda said at the end, she doesn't understand these powers but she will. I think she's going on a journey and part of that will be finding what part of the multiverse her kids are trapped in (likely linked to a Strange baddie) and to discover how to deal with her powers.

People think her reading the Darkhold looks evil but it is exactly like Strange doing the same in his own movie in astral form.

[ExodusCloak]

Within the MCU, so many others have done far worse things for which they haven't compensated or made amends, that it's trite to kvetch about Wanda, especially since what she did was reversible and reversed. Yes there'll be trauma and baggage for those people, but that doesn't compare to what others did by intent or indifference:
-- Tony Stark, Black Widow, had far more blood on their hands.
-- Hawkeye when he goes Ronin murdered scores of gangsters for five years playing judge, jury, execution.
-- Hulk on Sakaar killed other gladiatorial contestants, many of them oppressed aliens like him, and indeed likely would have been Korg had Thor not arrived.
-- Doctor Strange sacrificed Iron Man's life without his knowledge and consent.
-- Captain Marvel as a Kree soldier committed many war crimes against Skrulls and killed thousands of them.
-- Thor is the son of a genocidal tyrant, and he himself notes that he killed more than 1000 people in his life.




Again, all of that was reversible and reversed unlike some of the damage other heroes did and were reversed.




.

The people she was controlling remarked they would rather she kill them then continue being tortured? Somethings are worse then death this is purpleman level torture

[GenericUsername]

The people she was controlling remarked they would rather she kill them then continue being tortured? Somethings are worse then death this is purpleman level torture

And when she realized what she was doing was hurting them she let them go. Wanda is not in her right mind this whole show. They have a whole theme about the 5 stages of grief. It's not like Purple Man that knew what he was doing to his victims, and even committed sexual assault.

[ospfwildcard]

Marvel Spotlight #4 just lit up on ebay

moralizing comic book characters based on real world ethics is as futile as it gets. no hero ever gets punished to a sufficient degree. Wanda wiped out all but 100 mutants and was never punished to think she would for this in the mcu is preposterous.

Whats the chances some aspect of the Midnight Son's storyline shows up in Dr. Strange MOM?

[Daedra]

The people she was controlling remarked they would rather she kill them then continue being tortured? Somethings are worse then death this is purpleman level torture

I disagree, It was unwanted, she had no idea and as soon as she realized the citizens weren’t manipulated by Agatha she lifted the hex, the spell was on autopilot to the point that she was sucked (for a while) into her own illusion

[ExodusCloak]

And when she realized what she was doing was hurting them she let them go. Wanda is not in her right mind this whole show. They have a whole theme about the 5 stages of grief. It's not like Purple Man that knew what he was doing to his victims, and even committed sexual assault.

She knew what she was doing, Vision said it to her 3 to 4 episodes ago. She was in her right mind to control everything consciously. There's a different between grief and being psychotic and Wanda wasn't insane here. She wasn't experiencing psychosis in fact she was well in control of the warp in her immediate vicinity and even expanded it. She wouldn't even get temporary insanity here this isn't comic Wanda

The people of westview couldn't even eat without her permission they were starving, that woman was stuck with her arm in the air for days in the same position while hanging up clothes. That is purple man level torture

I disagree, It was unwanted, she had no idea and as soon as she realized the citizens weren’t manipulated by Agatha she lifted the hex, the spell was on autopilot to the point that she was sucked (for a while) into her own illusion

She was aware of what was going on ages ago. And she attacked the citizens of westview prior to lifting the hex. She was stopping time, rewinding it etc in front of us several episodes prior to this.

[Daedra]

She knew what she was doing, Vision said it to her 3 to 4 episodes ago. She was in her right mind to control everything consciously. There's a different between grief and been psychotic and Wanda wasn't insane here. She wasn't experiencing psychosis in fact she was well in control of the warp in her immediate vicinity and even expanded it. She wouldn't even get temporary insanity here this isn't comic Wanda

The people of westview couldn't even eat without her permission they were starving, that woman was stuck with her arm in the air for days in the same position while hanging up clothes. That is purple man level torture



She was aware of what was going on ages ago. And she attacked the citizens of westview prior to lifting the hex

In that moment She thought they were controlled by Agatha, she had no idea the automated aspects of her unplanned hex were hurting them, when she realized their suffering was real she lifted it, we can do this all day but it’s right there on film.

[ExodusCloak]

In that moment She thought they were controlled by Agatha, she had no idea the automated aspect of her unplanned hex was hurting them, when she realized their suffering was real she lifted it, we can do this all day but it’s right there on film.

Why do you say that? When she was the one resetting things, stopping changing things in front of Vision? She was aware as Vision confronted her about it episodes ago.

[Daedra]

Why do you say that? When she was the one resetting things, stopping changing things in front of Vision? She was aware as Vision confronted her about it episodes ago.

Because that’s different than being aware of each person suffering, the torture aspects were unintentional, she was shocked when she realized the true consequences of her spell, also she kept being sucked into her own fantasy, it’s the same control we have when we dream as far as I am concerned