Wandavision

[Oberon]

spoilers:

Your optimism is most encouraging and uplifting. Thank you for sharing! The Scarlet Witch will always be a hero to me. But the audience isn't the people living inside the MCU. Having the population distrust (and even criminalize) their heroes is bread and butter Marvel Comics. Wanda isn't coming out of this celebrated as a beloved Avenger. As you say this is ultimately where it lands - like, if I'm Norm, and I spend a couple weeks being mentally controlled and abused by this woman, and my sick dad dies in the interim? Even if I understand that it's not REALLY her fault, my thought is going to be, "if she was in the Raft, this wouldn't have happened." Having someone who's a couple bad days away from another accidental mass casualty event walking around free is bad for everyone. Having issues with mental health or being neurologically atypical, there's nothing wrong with those things. But if you have those problems, and you know people around you may be at risk, it IS your responsibility to mitigate that risk. If you're at risk of a mental break, don't carry around a gun, y'know? After Civil War, Wanda should be aware that she's not fully in control of her powers, and that if she's not at 100%, things can and will go wrong. That's strike one. Now she continues to walk around with a loaded gun, has made no effort (to our knowledge) to improve her understanding or control of those powers, and she's hurt THOUSANDS of people. That's strike two. Great power, great responsibility. (With the asterisk that, as an international fugitive, her opportunities to find that help were probably pretty scarce. Ross and his hardline tactics are part of the reason we are where we are. But so is Cap and his "freedom isn't free" bullshit - staying confined to house arrest at the Avengers compound until she got a handle on her powers would have been the best case scenario.) This is Marvel, though. I don't see the community coming out hating Wanda. After all, Monica was under control and felt her pain. So we can assume all residents will have inherent sympathy for her. Then you combine that with her improving the infrastructure and property value of the town and then likely even throw in a smaltzy, "the whole experience was a communal therapy session for the whole town" as all the residents seemed miserable and depressed post-snap. And well, baby, you got yourself a redemption stew.

end of spoilers

Oh my, you are melodramatic and I thought I was. But clearly, as in the comics, there is always some 'deux machina' and that will be Dr. Strange coming in at the end and casting the spell that will heal and repair the damage and make them forget.

And whether that seems morally off and wrong, it would happen because it has so many times in comics, even Professor X wiping memories, without repairing other things.
[that's not an attack on him, just saying he is no magic person like Strange]

So I think reasonably we will find that Wanda didn't exactly do this thing, that maybe some of it is Agatha (all along) or whatever/however.
Certainly Strange will show up because he senses the great magic thing happening in Westview.

I think we've all mentioned these possibilities plus continuity wise, where would that Mordo be? He could be Norm, maybe, lol (not - just kidding). Of course Mordo being back for years with others snapped, or recently back could have changed his perspective?
No I think not only is Wanda 'innocent' but she will be seen as innocent, one way or the other.

[GenericUsername]

I mean, last episode basically subtlety implied the residents of the town are better off in her world. Westview was a dilapidated town full of tired eyed residents. Wanda revitalized the entire town, restored its crumbling infrastructure, and gave everyone jobs. I'm only half joking, because the episode really did seem like it was implying this. If this was the only consequence of Wanda's actions, it wouldn't be so bad. But we here know that's not all she did.

But WandaVision is a situation entirely of her making which she has so far actively supported, even after learning the cost of it. Even if she's very sympathetic, she's 100 percent in the wrong here and it would be strange for the plot to let her off scot-free at the end of it, especially if the speculation about Vision coming fully back to life is true.

I can see her realizing she's wrong (probably after saving the town from Agatha and White Vision), turning herself in to some kind of punishment, and then Strange bailing her out during Multiverse of Madness.

As much as I like Wanda, I really hope this doesn't end with the town residents forgiving her or something. That would kinda be fucked up.

Wrong does not mean she's in control. It is telling a tale of grief, PTSD and depression and how that affects a super powered character. And nowhere did I see her being ok with what she did after. She's not yet out of this dream world and it hasn't been dispelled yet. The episode ended with Agatha breaking through to her after a Christmas Carol like journey through time.

[Albert1981]

These kind of stories may have more than one twist in mind. There are still things that could happen or be revealed, and some left for another time. Time is not necessarily a problem if simple seeding or revelations might happen.

Maybe Westview is New Salem. And/or maybe Agatha was already in proximity as were other possible magic users.

or those others were equally drawn here and are caught in Wanda's spell, though like Agatha, they may have some sense or more of what is going on. So maybe that Dottie, whoever she may be.

Now 'if' the town or most of it, were New Salem, then typically they're evil witches and Wanda was drawn there possibly subconsciously and the results happen, but
those folks are not so unguilty, maybe?
Clues: The basement of Agatha looks like it could have been there more than a century, hahaha.
Considering the weirdness of 'for the children' and a slightly better look at her nearest neighbors, there must be some clue, perhaps. It wouldn't be like Marvel to somehow address this, even if the action or energy moves elsewhere. (I can't see why that would be though)
So my short story is, if the town was New Salem, or some of its folks were from there, than they maybe were already controlling it (hence the run down?)
And Wanda has only remolded that.
I guess it is a sketchy theory

I would like this theory to come true. And that Norm is a liar and that lady was shedding crocodile tears. Maybe there was no intent initially, but once Vision, Monica, Fietro, Agatha and Jimmy (through the radio) have all told her what she is doing and have asked her to stop, yet she doesn't?? She's willfully and knowingly continuing this assault on these people because she is sad. That won't hold up in a court whether legal or the one of public opinion.

Which is why I hate this Wanda did it (and continued to) storyline. Disney is just piling more **** on this poor woman, who has lead probably the roughest life of any Avenger. And she'll have to answer for this or the MCU has a broken justice system to say the least. You can't possess and control thousand including children and just be like wasn't that wacky of me?

[GenericUsername]

I would like this theory to come true. And that Norm is a liar and that lady was shedding crocodile tears. Maybe there was no intent initially, but once Vision, Monica, Fietro, Agatha and Jimmy (through the radio) have all told her what she is doing and have asked her to stop, yet she doesn't?? She's willfully and knowingly continuing this assault on these people because she is sad. That won't hold up in a court whether legal or the one of public opinion.

Which is why I hate this Wanda did it (and continued to) storyline. Disney is just piling more **** on this poor woman, who has lead probably the roughest life of any Avenger. And she'll have to answer for this or the MCU has a broken justice system to say the least. You can't possess and control thousand including children and just be like wasn't that wacky of me?

Willfully and knowingly are not being depicted here. What has is her powers going out of control because of grief. There is no true intent. Her grief over-took her and spread through the town.

[Albert1981]

Wrong does not mean she's in control. It is telling a tale of grief, PTSD and depression and how that affects a super powered character. And nowhere did I see her being ok with what she did after. She's not yet out of this dream world and it hasn't been dispelled yet. The episode ended with Agatha breaking through to her after a Christmas Carol like journey through time.

And hopefully Agatha changes into the Grinch before this is all over. We know Monica was under Wanda's control and felt her pain. So we can assume all residents will have inherent sympathy for her is one theory that's been proposed elsewhere. But if the series goes that route, I think that would literally ruin the show. People already balk at Monica (and to lesser degrees Jimmy and Darcy) being so adamantly and arguably cocksure of Wanda's innocence - it's why Hayward gets as much sympathy as he does. As you know, I'm actually one of those folks who feels this way. Extending Monica's "I felt her grief" to the entire town is bound to be a breaking point for a lot of people.

Like, it's essentially admitting that they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know how to get out of it beyond making it super convenient, and then added "it was actually a net good for a dilapidated town" on top to make sure. And that just feels surprisingly sloppy for the current MCU. I'm not calling it high-art by any means, but if they can't handle the ramifications of this scenario then why'd they walk straight into it? Bullshit as "it was Mephisto/Nightmare all along" would've been, it would've been significantly easier to work with.

[GenericUsername]

And hopefully Agatha changes into the Grinch before this is all over. We know Monica was under Wanda's control and felt her pain. So we can assume all residents will have inherent sympathy for her is one theory that's been proposed elsewhere. But if the series goes that route, I think that would literally ruin the show. People already balk at Monica (and to lesser degrees Jimmy and Darcy) being so adamantly and arguably cocksure of Wanda's innocence - it's why Hayward gets as much sympathy as he does. As you know, I'm actually one of those people. Extending Monica's "I felt her grief" to the entire town is bound to be a breaking point for a lot of people.

Like, it's essentially admitting that they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know how to get out of it beyond making it super convenient, and then added "it was actually a net good for a dilapidated town" on top to make sure. And that just feels surprisingly sloppy for the current MCU. I'm not calling it high-art by any means, but if they can't handle the ramifications of this scenario then why'd they walk straight into it? Bullshit as "it was Mephisto/Nightmare all along" would've been, it would've been significantly easier to work with.

The show honestly has been ruined for you all along, so it probably won't matter if they forgive her. You've been very fault finding from the beginning. And usually over stuff not even really accurate to what's been shown.

I can't get through to you that it's not depicting Wanda as purposely doing this.

We don't know what they wrote themselves into because the show isn't done.

[Albert1981]

Willfully and knowingly are not being depicted here. What has is her powers going out of control because of grief. There is no true intent. Her grief over-took her and spread through the town.

Perhaps not. But definitely a lot of people feel that way. Too many in my opinion. I think her PTSD has been portrayed remarkably well. WAY better than for other characters such as Rhodey, Barton and Barnes. I just wish this series didn't have to drag Westview into this story.

I think that the "Westview Incident" will be one of many situations that directly leads to the creation of the Thunderbolts, a team of superpowered individuals that are sanctioned by the government to bring in or terminate anyone it classifies as a supervillain.

There are your consequences - Wanda will have been at least partly responsible for the creation of the Sokovian Accords and the Thunderbolts Initiative and she will be the poster child for "do we really want superpowered individuals running around freely if they can't even control their own powers?" It would even foreshadow the inevitable hatred and fear people have for mutants, since they're always gonna ask if they've got "another Wanda" on their hands.

[GenericUsername]

Perhaps not. But definitely a lot of people feel that way. Too many in my opinion. I think her PTSD has been portrayed remarkably well. WAY better than for other characters such as Rhodey, Barton and Barnes. I just wish this series didn't have to drag Westview into this story.

I think that the "Westview Incident" will be one of many situations that directly leads to the creation of the Thunderbolts, a team of superpowered individuals that are sanctioned by the government to bring in or terminate anyone it classifies as a supervillain.

There are your consequences - Wanda will have been at least partly responsible for the creation of the Sokovian Accords and the Thunderbolts Initiative and she will be the poster child for "do we really want superpowered individuals running around freely if they can't even control their own powers?" It would even foreshadow the inevitable hatred and fear people have for mutants, since they're always gonna ask if they've got "another Wanda" on their hands.

They already did that after Lagos, so it changes nothing.

And people not getting that she's not really in control is their own comprehension issue.

[Albert1981]

The show honestly has been ruined for you all along, so it probably won't matter if they forgive her. You've been very fault finding from the beginning. And usually over stuff not even really accurate to what's been shown.

I can't get through to you that it's not depicting Wanda as purposely doing this.

We don't know what they wrote themselves into because the show isn't done.

It's certainly not ruined for me. You HAVE gotten through to me. And you HAVE changed my mind about a LOT of things and actually made me look at it a lot more positively. So I don't agree with that statement. It's that I'm freaked out that Wanda is not coming out of this series with clean hands. Episode 8 was the best one of the series (in my opinion), but it definitely raised alarm bells. I thought it was Agatha all along last week, and now it's Wanda's again? I despise the notion of Wanda turning into a pariah figure in the MCU. She was in such a great place after the Infinity Saga. Nobody doubted her heroic bonafides then. Now Disney is transforming her into this morally ambiguous character which bothers me a lot. No other female superhero goes through this ****. Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel don't have to wrestle with these issues, they just get to be flat-out heroes. Why can't Wanda enjoy that privilege?

[GenericUsername]

It's certainly not ruined for me. You HAVE gotten through to me. And you HAVE changed my mind about a LOT of things and actually made me look at it a lot more positively. So I don't agree with that statement. It's that I'm freaked out that Wanda is not coming out of this series with clean hands. Episode 8 was the best one of the series (in my opinion), but it definitely raised alarm bells. I thought it was Agatha all along last week, and now it's Wanda's again? I despise the notion of Wanda turning into a pariah figure in the MCU. She was in such a great place after the Infinity Saga. Nobody doubted her heroic bonafides then. Now Disney is transforming her into this morally ambiguous character which bothers me a lot. No other female superhero goes through this ****. Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel don't have to wrestle with these issues, they just get to be flat-out heroes. Why can't Wanda enjoy that privilege?

I think she'd have to be culpable to be a pariah. And she's really not. She didn't ask for all the loss and she just wanted to bury her bf and was even denied that. And in her moment of breakdown, she felt her world falling apart and going out of control, so her powers did as well.

She likely will have to train to control her powers. And we don't know how this ends yet. So we don't know how she comes out of it.

[Albert1981]

Oh my, you are melodramatic and I thought I was. But clearly, as in the comics, there is always some 'deux machina' and that will be Dr. Strange coming in at the end and casting the spell that will heal and repair the damage and make them forget.

And whether that seems morally off and wrong, it would happen because it has so many times in comics, even Professor X wiping memories, without repairing other things.
[that's not an attack on him, just saying he is no magic person like Strange]

So I think reasonably we will find that Wanda didn't exactly do this thing, that maybe some of it is Agatha (all along) or whatever/however.
Certainly Strange will show up because he senses the great magic thing happening in Westview.

I think we've all mentioned these possibilities plus continuity wise, where would that Mordo be? He could be Norm, maybe, lol (not - just kidding). Of course Mordo being back for years with others snapped, or recently back could have changed his perspective?
No I think not only is Wanda 'innocent' but she will be seen as innocent, one way or the other.

Making folks "forget" about what happened would be so lame! Talk about a lack of creativity. But at this point, I hope this whole thing was just a bad dream. Like Star Trek's Inner Light episode. Wanda was sucked into an another world where she had a family and Westview was a dying civilization or something. Then she made their lives better, but because the world was dying she had to leave it (and only bittersweet memories remained). Now that would be GREAT!

[Albert1981]

I think she'd have to be culpable to be a pariah. And she's really not. She didn't ask for all the loss and she just wanted to bury her bf and was even denied that. And in her moment of breakdown, she felt her world falling apart and going out of control, so her powers did as well.

She likely will have to train to control her powers. And we don't know how this ends yet. So we don't know how she comes out of it.

I really hope she's not culpable for any bad things that happen in Westview. Because that would suck royally. And on a totally unrelated note, I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy jousting with you on these forums. It's been SO much fun and it's never gotten nasty. So engaging and informative. And funny. You're a worthy adversary.

You've changed my mind on a lot of things, but I don't think I've succeed in budging you on ANY of your positions!

[GenericUsername]

Making folks "forget" about what happened would be so lame! Talk about a lack of creativity. But at this point, I hope this whole thing was just a bad dream. Like Star Trek's Inner Light episode. Wanda was sucked into an another world where she had a family and Westview was a dying civilization or something. Then she made their lives better and then at because the world was dying she had to leave it (and only bittersweet memories remained). Now that would be GREAT!

Well they make reference to Dick Van Dyke and other sitcoms that had episodes that put the characters in a dream. And posters with Wanda mention dreams. So it is highly likely that this will all have been a dream to the people of Westview. Even Wanda was caught up into the dream state. Agatha even says she had to wake her up from it.

[GenericUsername]

I really hope she's not culpable for any bad things that happen in Westview. Because that would suck royally. And on a totally unrelated note, I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy jousting with you on these forums. It's been SO much fun and it's never gotten nasty. So engaging and informative. And funny. You're a worthy adversary.

You've changed my mind on a lot of things, but I don't think I've succeed in budging you on ANY of your positions!

I really enjoy discussing things with you too. Part of what makes the show great is the theories and discussions it drums up.

[Albert1981]

I really enjoy discussing things with you too. Part of what makes the show great is the theories and discussions it drums up.

Why wouldn't you enjoy arguing things with me? I haven't changed your mind about anything. One-sided.