Wandavision

[CosmiComic]

So Clint should be forgiven because he thought his wife was dead. But Wanda not because her husband was actually dead. And even though his body is back with his memories, he's not the same?

I don't think he should be forgiven. I could see him being forgiven, but I don't feel the MCU should condone his actions

[GenericUsername]

I don't think he should be forgiven. I could see him being forgiven, but I don't feel the MCU should condone his actions

I think people have to accept that Marvel characters were meant to be flawed. It was the big thing with Jack and Stan even back in the day that they not be perfect. That they mess up sometimes. So movies are gonna take that and run with it, especially because it makes for good action.

[CosmiComic]

I think people have to accept that Marvel characters were meant to be flawed. It was the big thing with Jack and Stan even back in the day that they not be perfect. That they mess up sometimes. So movies are gonna take that and run with it, especially because it makes for good action.

I know people say this, but flaws aren't worth much if they're not challenged. Otherwise heroes just end up as villains.

[GenericUsername]

I know people say this, but flaws aren't worth much if they're not challenged. Otherwise heroes just end up as villains.

Well it's never really challenged in comics. Not in the way it could be in real life. Bucky did go through a trial in comics, but likely that's not something they wanted to do in movies because it's a tone changer. So instead he lives with his demons of being controlled and used as a weapon. Thor was banished to Earth, which worked out well for him, but wasn't imprisoned. I don't know what Hawkeye's challenge is. I guess that's forgotten. I hope Wanda's is that she learns to control her powers. Because it's obvious she never intended harm but somehow is worse than those that did. Natasha, we haven't seen the ledger fleshed out. We know from comics she was made into an assassin like Bucky though. So she's a lives with her demons type too.

Corporal punishment is used very rarely and for characters it makes sense for. Cap has been in jail, Cyclops, Luke Cage... but they never stay in there. They are always needed for future stories, are written by someone else. Or never did that thing to begin with, were possessed, manipulated. So that it can be temporary drama. Looking for real life consequences in fantasy fiction is probably fruitless.

[CosmiComic]

Well it's never really challenged in comics. Not in the way it could be in real life. Bucky did go through a trial in comics, but likely that's not something they wanted to do in movies because it's a tone changer. So instead he lives with his demons of being controlled and used as a weapon. Thor was banished to Earth, which worked out well for him, but wasn't imprisoned. I don't know what Hawkeye's challenge is. I guess that's forgotten. I hope Wanda's is that she learns to control her powers. Because it's obvious she never intended harm but somehow is worse than those that did. Natasha, we haven't seen the ledger fleshed out. We know from comics she was made into an assassin like Bucky though. So she's a lives with her demons type too.

Corporal punishment is used very rarely and for characters it makes sense for. Cap has been in jail, Cyclops, Luke Cage... but they never stay in there. They are always needed for future stories, are written by someone else. Or never did that thing to begin with, were possessed, manipulated. So that it can be temporary drama. Looking for real life consequences in fantasy fiction is probably fruitless.

well, maybe they should think about doing that. I don't like seeing characters act like jerks or villains, then go unpunished only to act like they should punish others. I feel like the static nature of things can be detrimental.

[Albert1981]

I feel the Avengers are more scatered at this point more then anything, with Captain America Retired, Iron Man dead, Black Widow Dead and Thor off in Space most of the Core team that held the Brand of the Avengers together is right now gone.

I think part of phase 4-5 will be how if at all a new band of Avengers can get back together, what that will look like, the teams meaning in the aftermath of the core being gone and more.

Right now the Avengers are not a former team in the MCU right now with the last core elements doing their own thing to get back into a post un-blip world.

Wanda will just be one journey of many in how, if at all, the team gets back together or if the MCU is plaining for that at all right now.

Yeah, it's as Tony said. The band's broke up...Like the Beatles. And they never got back together. So maybe the Avengers are "toast" in the MCU too.

[GenericUsername]

well, maybe they should think about doing that. I don't like seeing characters act like jerks or villains, then go unpunished only to act like they should punish others. I feel like the static nature of things can be detrimental.

Well again, there's not much they can do to a Thor or Scarlet Witch. They tried keeping Loki imprisoned and look what all chaos ensued there. And on a level of understanding how powerful they are, it wouldn't make any sense. So their punishments are something within themselves really. Because there'd be no way in real life you'd be able to do anything about them. None.

For street level characters, they can, but it's only when the story calls for it. And like I said, that could be a tonal shift they don't want. Because while you might want to see consequences, it might make for a boring watch for most people. So they don't dig too deep into it. Hell I was surprised spoilers:

that they did a whole therapy session with Bucky in the first episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier

end of spoilers I wish Wanda could get that. But she only ever gets more people messing with her. I just accept it's not a thing they like to do often. So I just hope for some self-accountability. That they try to keep themselves in control.

It goes to show you how much of a nightmare this would be if any of it were real.

[Albert1981]

Thor did commit war crimes that was the whole reason his father banished him.... (well not exactly that, it's more that he disobeyed Odin)

I've mentioned the other Avengers crimes and spoiler for Falcon and Winter Soldier, spoilers:

Falcon just murdered a bunch of french guys

end of spoilers. There's always a way back for Avengers. They were never meant to be flawless. They were only meant to take out threats that no one else could.

I think Wanda has a little bit less of an excuse after what happened in WandaVision. Remember that really fun action-adventure flick: True Lies? My dad LOVES that movie. Well, there was a famous exchange between the two main leads:

Helen Tasker (wife): "Have you ever killed anyone?"

Harry Tasker (husband): "Yeah, but they were all bad."

Isn't that what Clint and Sam are guilty of? Killing bad guys? I'm not a fan of extra-judicial murders, but stuff like that in wars happen almost all the time. And superhero movies and shows are like war movies and shows with folks in spandex. I do think they should still be held to account for their actions though. The situation with Wanda is different even though nobody died.

[CosmiComic]

Well again, there's not much they can do to a Thor or Scarlet Witch. They tried keeping Loki imprisoned and look what all chaos ensued there. And on a level of understanding how powerful they are, it wouldn't make any sense. So their punishments are something within themselves really. Because there'd be no way in real life you'd be able to do anything about them. None.

For street level characters, they can, but it's only when the story calls for it. And like I said, that could be a tonal shift they don't want. Because while you might want to see consequences, it might make for a boring watch for most people. So they don't dig too deep into it. Hell I was surprised spoilers:

that they did a whole therapy session with Bucky in the first episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier

end of spoilers I wish Wanda could get that. But she only ever gets more people messing with her. I just accept it's not a thing they like to do often. So I just hope for some self-accountability. That they try to keep themselves in control.

It goes to show you how much of a nightmare this would be if any of it were real.

I agree it would be hard to punish superpowerful characters, unless other superpowerful characters do the punishing. Maybe the writers shouldn't make our heroes do all this in the first place.

I think Wanda has a little bit less of an excuse after what happened in WandaVision. Remember that really fun action-adventure flick: True Lies? My dad LOVES that movie. Well, there was a famous exchange between the two main leads:

Helen Tasker (wife): "Have you ever killed anyone?"

Harry Tasker (husband): "Yeah, but they were all bad."

Isn't that what Clint and Sam are guilty of? Killing bad guys? I'm not a fan of extra-judicial murders, but stuff like that in wars happen almost all the time. And superhero movies and shows are like war movies and shows with folks in spandex. I do think they should still be held to account for their actions though. The situation with Wanda is different even though nobody died.

Well, Cap was against extrajudicial killing, so I'm not sure what Clint's or Sam's deal is

[Albert1981]

So Clint should be forgiven because he thought his wife was dead. But Wanda not because her husband was actually dead. And even though his body is back with his memories, he's not the same?

I think Clint should be forgiven for his action if he owns up to them and demonstrates a willingness to face some sort of punishment (I REALLY hope that happens). However, if he loses his family members (for real) or dies himself protecting others, then yeah, I think he will have paid his dues. Nat dying in Endgame went a long way in redeeming her character as well in my opinion. I personally forgave Wanda for her bad decisions in AoU after she lost her brother. I think lots of audience members did. That's karma.

[Albert1981]

Thor did commit war crimes that was the whole reason his father banished him.... (well not exactly that, it's more that he disobeyed Odin)

I've mentioned the other Avengers crimes and spoiler for Falcon and Winter Soldier, spoilers:

Falcon just murdered a bunch of french guys

end of spoilers. There's always a way back for Avengers. They were never meant to be flawless. They were only meant to take out threats that no one else could.

Banishment is punishment.

[CosmiComic]

I think Clint should be forgiven for his action if he owns up to them and demonstrates a willingness to face some sort of punishment (I REALLY hope that happens). However, if he loses his family members (for real) or dies himself protecting others, then yeah, I think he will have paid his dues. Nat dying in Endgame goes a long way to redeeming herself in my opinion as well. I personally forgave Wanda for her bad decisions in AoU after she lost her brother. I think lots of audience members did. That's karma.

But why do others die for their mistakes?

I hated sacrificing both Pietro and Nat for Clint.

[Albert1981]

Well it's never really challenged in comics. Not in the way it could be in real life. Bucky did go through a trial in comics, but likely that's not something they wanted to do in movies because it's a tone changer. So instead he lives with his demons of being controlled and used as a weapon. Thor was banished to Earth, which worked out well for him, but wasn't imprisoned. I don't know what Hawkeye's challenge is. I guess that's forgotten. I hope Wanda's is that she learns to control her powers. Because it's obvious she never intended harm but somehow is worse than those that did. Natasha, we haven't seen the ledger fleshed out. We know from comics she was made into an assassin like Bucky though. So she's a lives with her demons type too.

Corporal punishment is used very rarely and for characters it makes sense for. Cap has been in jail, Cyclops, Luke Cage... but they never stay in there. They are always needed for future stories, are written by someone else. Or never did that thing to begin with, were possessed, manipulated. So that it can be temporary drama. Looking for real life consequences in fantasy fiction is probably fruitless.

I would rather there be some accountability in the live-action stuff. They even talked about it a lot with the whole Sokovia Accords thing. There are no consequences and stakes in the comic books. But for the shows and movies, I think it could be a good place where themes of responsibility can SOMEWHAT be explored with a little bit more depth.

[CosmiComic]

I would rather there be some accountability in the live-action stuff. They even talked about it a lot with the whole Sokovia Accords thing. There are no consequences and stakes in the comic books. But for the shows and movies, I think it could be a good place where themes of responsibility can SOMEWHAT be explored with a little bit more depth.

Agreed. Live action progresses, so realistic consequences need to be taken into account.

[Albert1981]

But why do others die for their mistakes?

I hated sacrificing both Pietro and Nat for Clint.

I dunno. I just understand that it happens a lot in fiction...And I accept that.