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  1. #1
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    Default Why do people dislike Joker (2019)?

    I’m not saying it’s perfect. The mental health aspects are a bit problematic, speaking as someone who’s studied psychology, it’s a bit derivative of Pre-Goodfellas Scorsese, the Batman elements are a bit too forced, but it had a lot of things going for it: Phoenix’s performance, the production values are amazing, I like how it gives the genre more variety and a chance for other CBMs to do something different than the “save the world” plotline. But why is it disliked to this degree?

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    For me it felt like a retread of King of Comedy and tried so hard to be a Scorcesee movie it was distracting. I admit Phoenix did a good acting job, but I still don't understand why he needed to be anorexic. His weight had nothing to do with his mental illness.
    Also the story would have been exactly the same if it was called Clown instead of Joker. The whole Joker thing just felt like a way to get more people into the theater.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    For me it felt like a retread of King of Comedy and tried so hard to be a Scorcesee movie it was distracting. I admit Phoenix did a good acting job, but I still don't understand why he needed to be anorexic. His weight had nothing to do with his mental illness.
    Also the story would have been exactly the same if it was called Clown instead of Joker. The whole Joker thing just felt like a way to get more people into the theater.
    I don’t disagree with any of this, I even mentioned some of the things you’ve brought up. And Phoenix would agree with you there since he originally wanted to get fat for the role.

  4. #4
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    Actually re watched this last night. It's okay. It's definitely not as good the second time.

    I agree it tried very hard to be of a period, and style of filmmaking. It was definitely a retread of King of Comedy and Taxi Driver. The Batman elements were forced, and honestly, probably should have been left out. Or just much more removed. 8 Year old Bruce and 45 Year old Joker is stupid and really makes it stick out that this is only a one-off, Joker in name only story.

    I like it fine for what it is, but I didn't think it was amazing the way some did.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Good analysis Joker. I was just underwhelmed after all the hype. Then again I hated Suicide Squad and don't understand how it was a hit (except for Robbie). And I hated everything about Leto's Joker.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member green_garnish's Avatar
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    I don't dislike it. Because I didn't see it. Just held no interest for me. Joker serves no purpose without Batman, and it seemed somewhat annoying to me to build this up as aDC movie when it was clearly an art house film with no roots in anything comic book related.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    For me it felt like a retread of King of Comedy and tried so hard to be a Scorcesee movie it was distracting. I admit Phoenix did a good acting job, but I still don't understand why he needed to be anorexic. His weight had nothing to do with his mental illness.
    Also the story would have been exactly the same if it was called Clown instead of Joker. The whole Joker thing just felt like a way to get more people into the theater.
    That's pretty much how I feel. Great performance from Phoenix, but it seemed barely connected to the traditional Joker or Batman stuff that it really could have not been Batman related at all and still effectively been the same movie.

    I respect it for aiming to be more experimental and different than typical CBMs and we need more experimentation like that, but I kind of agree with the RLM guys for saying it's "Baby's first Taxi Driver." Just watch Taxi Driver or King of Comedy

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    This was a big hit, critically and at the box office, but I wonder if that was mostly on the strength of Phoenix's performance?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    For me it felt like a retread of King of Comedy and tried so hard to be a Scorcesee movie it was distracting. I admit Phoenix did a good acting job, but I still don't understand why he needed to be anorexic. His weight had nothing to do with his mental illness.
    Also the story would have been exactly the same if it was called Clown instead of Joker. The whole Joker thing just felt like a way to get more people into the theater.
    I’m gonna go w. the above, because it’s a lot nicer than I usually put it, especially the part in bold.

  10. #10
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    I forgot to mention, and this is personal preference, I greatly dislike Joker origins. I like the idea that he just is. It doesn’t need to make sense. He doesn’t need motivation. He’s just chaos. Disruption.

    So this was already not my cup of tea, and the fact that it is so removed from Batman as a whole really helped me enjoy the movie more, which is another reason I disliked what elements of Batman they put in. Then they decided to put them in very poorly.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBarnhill View Post
    I like how it gives the genre more variety and a chance for other CBMs to do something different than the “save the world” plotline.
    Two issues I have with this.
    1. This was not a comic book movie. It was a different kind of film with some comic elements vestigially tacked on. So those that liked it saying they liked comic book movies might just want to admit they don't like or are tired of comic book movies.

    2. People use that as an excuse to place the movie higher than it should be among comic books movies when as I said, it really isn't one. Different doesn't mean better, R rating doesn't mean better, barely having anything to do with the character or the world the character supposedly comes from doesn't mean better. I keep seeing people, even on this forum, act like this is the gold standard for R rated comic book movies. All I can think is they must not really like comic book movies.

  12. #12
    of House Bolton Ramsay Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    Two issues I have with this.
    1. This was not a comic book movie. It was a different kind of film with some comic elements vestigially tacked on. So those that liked it saying they liked comic book movies might just want to admit they don't like or are tired of comic book movies.

    2. People use that as an excuse to place the movie higher than it should be among comic books movies when as I said, it really isn't one. Different doesn't mean better, R rating doesn't mean better, barely having anything to do with the character or the world the character supposedly comes from doesn't mean better. I keep seeing people, even on this forum, act like this is the gold standard for R rated comic book movies. All I can think is they must not really like comic book movies.

    lol, comic book movies are movies based on comic books or comic book characters. What you're referring to are superhero movies.

    Joker was a good comic book movie, albeit flawed. And, no, I'm not tired of, nor do I dislike, superhero movies.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    ^^^This wasn’t a comic book movie OR a superhero movie, though.
    As pointed out, it could easily have just been called “Clown” w. no problem whatsoever. It attached the Joker name for a broader appeal. And, as comic fans are wont to do, some ate it up w. a spoon while some were like, oh hell no.

  14. #14
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    Joker was about as accurate to comic Joker as Halle Berry's movie was to comicbook Catwoman.

    If I want to watch a Joker movie, I kind of want it to actually be about the Joker.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Joker was about as accurate to comic Joker as Halle Berry's movie was to comicbook Catwoman.

    If I want to watch a Joker movie, I kind of want it to actually be about the Joker.
    I would love to see a Selina Kyle movie done in Joker’s style. Perhaps a bit lighter in tone but she’d be a better figure to talk about class divisions than the Joker ever would. The problem (among many) with the Berry movie was that they made her way too much like a hero and took far too much elements from the Pfeiffer version, due to this being a left over from an earlier draft for a solo movie based on that interpretation. I mean, Ed Brubaker gave you the perfect blueprint for a Kyle movie. His Gotham looked a lot like the Gotham from this movie.

    But have a woman direct it.

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