Marv Wolfman's Teen Titans reputation (as compared to Claremont's X-Men)

[EmeraldGladiator]

After Titan's Hunt the book dragged on with some bad arcs but then it was rebooted never to be seen again, first the Jurgens reboot with all new characters and then with people trying to homage to original Wolfman/Perez run without being able to reference it. Sort of like the Legion, Johns tried to bring the original version back but as always the enemy of giving the people the most popular version of those two franchises are editorial mandates.

[SiegePerilous02]

Thanks for the thoughtful post Tzigone -

I'm always of the opinion that unless it gets specifically retconned, everything that gets printed should be considered canon. Wolfman decided that Wally was a Republican? Well, that's what he is until someone points out a story where he isn't. I don't think you get to just say "well that was one bad issue" and ignore it. It got published, as part of one of the seminal runs in DC Comics history, and is part of the character's history. I guess you could argue the Crisis wiped it out but I don't think the Crisis would affect political leanings from a character. Wolverine met Leprechauns that were the first to reveal his name was Logan. Magneto was turned into a baby. Roy Harper beat a bunch of thugs with a dead cat. Norman Osborn had sex with Gwen Stacy. They're canon until they're specifically made otherwise in my opinion. I guess it's kind of the Grant Morrison on Batman rule - It all happened unless we are told why it didn't happen. Heck, especially with the new status quo of DC, where the characters remember everything from all their continuities, this is even more true.

So for me, Wally will always be a republican now. Oh well. He really was a favorite of mine and now I don't think he will ever be again.

The fallout from COIE lead to Wally's parents (along with other characters, up to and including Superman) being turned into completely different people, so Wally's political leanings being tweaked seems easy in comparison.

X-Men got newer characters that became fan favorites like Gambit, Psylocke, Rogue, etc.

Titans got people like Danny Chase, Azrael, Pantha, etc. No offense to fans of those characters but compared to Cyborg, Raven and Starfire, they weren’t fresh or exciting new members.

It is amusing that Wolfman hated all the 70s Titans, but in comparison Bumblebee and Mal are way better than any of his post-Perez creations.

[kcekada]

I mean they could've had the relationship with Wally without having him be a sidekick. It just felt like a gimmick to me. I know that without his time as Kid Flash the buildup to him becoming the Flash wouldn't work nearly as well but going from reading him as the Flash already to seeing him as a sidekick was a let down tbh.

Kid Flash wasn't a sidekick in the same sense as Robin, Speedy and Aqualad. He didn't live with Barry -- and had more solo adventures than team-ups with the Flash. I will say that Wolfman's version of Wally was a little too conservative. Then again, Mike Baron's was a little to liberal.

I think Wolfman downplayed the abilities of both Wally and Donna to make his own creations look better. I mean -- Donna and Starfire once sparred in training -- and Wolfman depicted Kory as being equally strong to Donna. I was like - WTF?!

[kcekada]

Maybe it's bad timing as I'm reading this concurrent to a bunch of traitorous Republicans storming the Capitol building but now I have to think about Kid Flash as a future Trump supporter? He's a 1980s Republican...does that mean he thinks AIDS is not a big deal because it's killing gay people? Does he not believe in a woman's right to choose? How am I supposed to believe he became friends with Pied Piper just a few years later? It throws his entire character into the toilet for me.

Wow! Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to lay so much on a comic book character? Maybe your own preconceptions about Republicans/Conservatives have made you almost as biased as a character you are bashing.

Keep in mind that Democrats can also have prejudices just as Republicans can also be very open-hearted. Today, both parties are very polarized, but I still believe that the majority of people lean more towards the middle.

[SiegePerilous02]

Kid Flash wasn't a sidekick in the same sense as Robin, Speedy and Aqualad. He didn't live with Barry -- and had more solo adventures than team-ups with the Flash. I will say that Wolfman's version of Wally was a little too conservative. Then again, Mike Baron's was a little to liberal.

I think Wolfman downplayed the abilities of both Wally and Donna to make his own creations look better. I mean -- Donna and Starfire once sparred in training -- and Wolfman depicted Kory as being equally strong to Donna. I was like - WTF?!

He had Donna say the only person to beat Donna in sparring before Kory was Diana herself.

Though it may be vague on power levels, Donna may be on the upper tier of Amazons with Amazon training but Wonder Woman had Amazon training plus divine gifts at this point.

[kcekada]

He had Donna say the only person to beat Donna in sparring before Kory was Diana herself.

Though it may be vague on power levels, Donna may be on the upper tier of Amazons with Amazon training but Wonder Woman had Amazon training plus divine gifts at this point.

Yes, but Donna had Amazonian training from toddler stage to young teenager. And the purple ray was supposed to duplicate the powers of Wonder Woman. She's basically always been a younger version of Wonder Woman-- perhaps with a little less training.

Maybe the problem was how people viewed the gifts of the Olympians. Stronger than Hercules and faster than Mercury didn't always equate to Superman level strength and Flash level speed. I think once DC got the option to Captain Marvel/Shazam -- who was supposedly on equal ground with Superman -- they had to recognize that Wonder Woman had many of the same gifts -- and would have to be on near equal ground as the other two. I don't know if the same upgrade of power even made its way to Donna -- especially since her origin has been changed so many times.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes, but Donna had Amazonian training from toddler stage to young teenager. And the purple ray was supposed to duplicate the powers of Wonder Woman. She's basically always been a younger version of Wonder Woman-- perhaps with a little less training.

Maybe the problem was how people viewed the gifts of the Olympians. Stronger than Hercules and faster than Mercury didn't always equate to Superman level strength and Flash level speed. I think once DC got the option to Captain Marvel/Shazam -- who was supposedly on equal ground with Superman -- they had to recognize that Wonder Woman had many of the same gifts -- and would have to be on near equal ground as the other two. I don't know if the same upgrade of power even made its way to Donna -- especially since her origin has been changed so many times.

That is the downside of Golden Age Wonder Woman not having divine gifts but getting that powerful through Amazon training. There is also the fact that Captain Marvel was not a DC creation and the Hercules that empowered him could be stronger than the DC one Wonder Woman outclassed. Probably why they shouldn't be in the same setting

[Hcmarvel]

So if you were going to try to update the New Teen Titans for a modern reader, and still build off the work Wolfman and Perez did (much the way Hickman and company are building on Claremont and Morrison), how would you bring the Teen Titans to the modern world? How do you deal with the fact that they aren't teens anymore? Should the old cast be out of the book in lieu of all new characters? What's the answer do you think?

[John Venus]

I would keep them as young adults but DC's continuity isn't stable right now. I would farm out the NTT era characters into different books; Dick in the Bat books, Wally as solo characters, Donna in the WW books, Starfire and Cyborg in a team book (maybe in the JL or Outsiders or some variant of that), Raven in JLD, etc. Acknowledge that these characters have history but keep them apart for a year or two before guest starring in each other's books and then bring them together as a team with a combination of old characters, new-to-the-team characters with a clear stated goal and purpose for the team's existence beyond just nostalgia.

Somebody in one of the other threads did a huge list dividing all the teen characters at DC into different teams. Somebody at DC should get on that. I think an Earth 2 style book but focusing on the NTT generation who would be pushing 50-60 year age bracket could work. There is a lot of fans of the 2003 show that loves the idea of Nightstar and her hooking up with Damian, Irey as the main Flash with Wally mentoring her, Tim/Stephanie/Cass as fully grown adults, etc.

The team also needs a popular adaptation that can really capture the zeitgeist. The current Titans show isn't very good but there has been quite a few adaptations of the Wolfman/Perez era so I would recommend something focusing on Tim Drake's generation. Nightwing can guest star and his generation can be fleshed out via flashbacks.

[Aahz]

It is amusing that Wolfman hated all the 70s Titans, but in comparison Bumblebee and Mal are way better than any of his post-Perez creations.

Not by much, at least in the 70s version.

Mal is pretty bland, had poorly defined powers (once he got them), and could never really stick to an identity. And Bumblebee wasn't really doing much in that book (in the few issues she was in).

[K. Jones]

I like both runs rather a lot. X-Men is wilder. Things are shocking in a more natural shocking way and the stakes feel higher.

That's a crazy thing to say when like, Raven's dad is a demon that's going to make Earth into a smoking crater, or Starfire's sister is a cosmic despot, or whatever plays out. Another thing with the X-Men is that even with their wildly disparate powers and designs and characterizations as people, their roots or origins or reason to be is all the same thing - the Mutant thing. It's less about Mutanthood being this great premise for real world allegory and more about all of these characters having this Root in common with each other, and that makes buying into like Alien Star Empires showing up somehow more manageable, knowing that even if Jean and Scott and Logan have wildly different histories ... it's all part of the history of mutanthood and they're all part of X-Men Comics, X-Men Editorial - not borrowed from different Editorial Deparments. I mean I say that - I know plenty of characters in X-Men are donated from other sections of Marvel Comics, Wolvie from Hulk, Sabertooth from Iron Fist, the list goes on and on and on. I think that's why it's the best team book. It's not a "team-up".

[kcekada]

Not by much, at least in the 70s version.

Mal is pretty bland, had poorly defined powers (once he got them), and could never really stick to an identity. And Bumblebee wasn't really doing much in that book (in the few issues she was in).

Bumblebee had a great visual - even before Perez update her look. So did Mal as the Guardian. The exo-skeleton really gave him a unique look instead of just being a black guy in the original Guardian's clothing. Had Wolfman put some more time in with these two -- instead of bringing in losers like Danny Chase -- maybe the book would have gained some momentum.

[SiegePerilous02]

Not by much, at least in the 70s version.

Mal is pretty bland, had poorly defined powers (once he got them), and could never really stick to an identity. And Bumblebee wasn't really doing much in that book (in the few issues she was in).

Bumblebee had a great visual - even before Perez update her look. So did Mal as the Guardian. The exo-skeleton really gave him a unique look instead of just being a black guy in the original Guardian's clothing. Had Wolfman put some more time in with these two -- instead of bringing in losers like Danny Chase -- maybe the book would have gained some momentum.

Even if the 70s versions were lame, I have a hard time believing they'd be worse than Azrael or Danny Chase.

And yeah, Bumblebee at least has a great visual.