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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    As I said, but their core brand tends to stick.
    If you think the titans core brand is about sidekicks to mainline heroes despite the NTT, the cartoon and TTGo (in which all three are easily the most popular and enduring aspects of the brand) , then that is only more proof that it's DC that keeps undermining wofman's teen titans...

    Like even if you argue that the tt is about sidekicks because it has robin in it, i'll point out that the whole point of robin in the ntt and the cartoon is that he is no longer batman's sidekick.
    Last edited by lgcruz; 01-17-2021 at 02:30 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    As I said, but their core brand tends to stick. Some good comics came out of those other interpretations, but a handicap the Titans suffer there is that the more the Titans disconnect from "next gen" as a theme, the more generic they become. IMO, if there's a great hook to give them other than their connections to the Flagship Properties, nobody seems to have found it yet.
    I think people don't recognize how strong of a concept Titans Academy is. It turns the Titans into an institution designed to guide and support younger heroes, and it could also be expanded to the a general team that "protects heroes from themselves and from others". They could travel anywhere and help the type of heroes who have fallen on hard times and don't know how to get out. themselves

    After all, for a very long time the Titans have been all about personal drama running amok and hurting others. The characters kind of got closer than most Justice League line ups because they had to deal with each others baggage. That's what the focus should be. Kinda like the original concept for Sanctuary.

    It can be both a support group, a school, a vigilance of other heroes both to protect them from others and to protect others from themselves.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    The X Men are a better metaphor for marginalized people, they can be stand ins for any outsider peoples struggle.
    Individually you can do that with the Teen Titans but they kind of just stand for a generic generationally teen culture.
    I don't think that really explains X-Men's popularity. They were topping the charts way before mutant hysteria got big again (didn't really happen until 'Days of Future Past').

    X-Men stayed fresher because Claremont was more willing to make changes. I can't say I liked everything he did after Byrne left -- and then Cockrum left again, but the series never got stale. Also, visually X-Men stayed in fan favorite territory. After Perez left Teen Titans, the book featured okay artists, but no fan favorites.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I think people don't recognize how strong of a concept Titans Academy is. It turns the Titans into an institution designed to guide and support younger heroes, and it could also be expanded to the a general team that "protects heroes from themselves and from others". They could travel anywhere and help the type of heroes who have fallen on hard times and don't know how to get out. themselves

    After all, for a very long time the Titans have been all about personal drama running amok and hurting others. The characters kind of got closer than most Justice League line ups because they had to deal with each others baggage. That's what the focus should be. Kinda like the original concept for Sanctuary.

    It can be both a support group, a school, a vigilance of other heroes both to protect them from others and to protect others from themselves.
    Which is still "next gen" is sounds cool, but still means "second string."

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I first bought X Men 138 off the spinner rack. The first thing I noticed was Byrnes art.
    That issue summed up the entire X Men history and I felt like I had been missing out for decades.
    All the members were unique, Wolverine was too cool, and the cliffhangers always hit. I never was able to get a complete run of what I missed. Teen Titans felt like they were playing catch up. Star fire looked like Phoenix. Raven felt like Dark Phoenix. Beast Boy was like Kurt. Cyborg look like Colossus and Dick fits that Cyclops role.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Which is still "next gen" is sounds cool, but still means "second string."
    I don't know. I think Raven being possessed by her father and attempting to ressurect Trigon is a world ending threat. The point is ghat instead of the threats coming directly on to the world, they come indirectly through the personal drama of heroes.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I first bought X Men 138 off the spinner rack. The first thing I noticed was Byrnes art.
    That issue summed up the entire X Men history and I felt like I had been missing out for decades.
    All the members were unique, Wolverine was too cool, and the cliffhangers always hit. I never was able to get a complete run of what I missed. Teen Titans felt like they were playing catch up. Star fire looked like Phoenix. Raven felt like Dark Phoenix. Beast Boy was like Kurt. Cyborg look like Colossus and Dick fits that Cyclops role.
    Isn't Storm a more adequate visual analogue to Raven?

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think Storm was sometimes presented a bit like Starfire. The eyes and the risqué scenes.

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    I think it's not in the same high regard because Wolfman's run really did suffer towards the end - especially once George left.
    The stories weren't as compelling and the new characters didn't have the appeal of the original team dynamic.
    Whereas Claremont managed to keep the plates spinning even after Byrne left.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I think Storm was sometimes presented a bit like Starfire. The eyes and the risqué scenes.
    Starfire was akin to Storm, not Jean. Starfire even swam publicly nude like Storm did. Both Donna and Jean asked each wouldn’t they rather put on clothes in similar panels.

  11. #26

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    Even though Claremont was clearly crushing on Ororo throughout his run, Starfire always came across as an even bigger male fantasy/Ms Fanservice character than Storm ever did.

    To the larger topic at hand, X-Men is about the minority metaphor whereas I always viewed the Titans as a coming-of-age story. It's about a group of kids from very different backgrounds who were forced to rely on one another, formed a deep bond with each other after going through hell together and it's about finding your own place in the world and becoming your own man. I don't mind Dick/Wally/Roy starting off as a Justice League Jr team but eventually with the addition of Raven, Starfire and Cyborg they should become their own thing as opposed to a subset of the League or graduating to the League (I'm cool with Wally graduating though). I'm cool with Tim's YJ team being a subset of the League though.

  12. #27
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    Having just reread up through Judas Contract - I just got the TPBS that are collecting the NTT Wolfman run and I'm halfway through Volume 7 of the 12 they've released - this is definitely not a book that is exploring the themes of being a sidekick or being a "Junior Justice League". We're constantly told that Robin is acting like a jerk to Starfire because he's stressed out about being Batman's sidekick and becoming his own hero, but other than Robin we hardly get anything about sidekick stuff. I don't even know if The Flash has even appeared in the book and while Wonder Woman is mentioned some by Donna, she's hardly a character (also, Donna was never really Wonder Woman's Sidekick per se right?).

    This is the first time I've read the run like this, in order from start to finish, and having just reached what is widely considered the peak storyline of the run...I have to say I am not impressed. Some random thoughts:

    - Beast Boy/Changeling is actually the worst. He's gross, a perv, constantly making inappropriate jokes that never land, and the pathos just isn't there. I really cannot stress how every issue he is in he is making a gross joke to Starfire, or Terra, or even Donna. I think we are supposed to be shocked at how violent Terra gets towards Garfield at times but I felt like "YES! SMASH HIM!". He's just an awful, awful character.

    - Donna is great, and clearly the girl I would have had a crush on if I had been reading this in the 80s, but Terry really is a drip. It fundamentally hurts the character that she's with such a boring partner. Also, hardly any of the stories have revolved around Donna save for the Titans storyline (where she gets sort of brainwashed to love one of the Titans and its icky) and Who is Donna Troy which is unquestionably the best issue in the run thus far in my opinion. It blows every other issue out of the water. It's magnificent. But even that is more of a showcase for Robin's detective ability than Donna in some ways. But Donna's great. I'm not looking forward to seeing how Crisis plays with her origins as I believe

    - Starfire is kind of ridiculous. The fact that she has a secret identity is "BANANAS". She is orange and has hair down to her feet but when Dick takes her to a musical she is "Kory Anders" and cannot approach the D.A. because he's not supposed to know she's Starfire? It's total madness. I like Starfire, I think they sort of perfected the character on the cartoon show by removing some of the Blow-Up Doll, Born Sexy Yesterday trope thing. Her storyline with Blackfire was ambitious, but the Omega Men stuff muddled it, and Blackfire is not that interesting a villain. She's just pure evil which is fairly limiting.

    - Robin is...fine. The fact that they thought they could do semi-serious superhero stories with him in those ridiculous shorts is a definite misfire. I know they were sort of trapped into that because that Robin look was so iconic and he was still beholden to the Bat-Books until Teen Titans became popular enough to wrestle the character away, but having Cyborg and Changeling make jokes about his outfit doesn't make it any less silly. In many ways he has the least to do in the book? Yes, he's the leader, but none of the plotlines revolve around him outside of the Vigilante plotline but that story makes no sense as Robin keeps acting like he's uncomfortable acting outside the law when that's...all that he and Batman do. Also, I know they address it, but it's painful watching him be such a jerk to Starfire.

    Kid Flash - Well thank god I read Mark Waid's Wally West before this stuff because New Teen Titan's Wally is the worst. He doesn't want to be there, is rude all the time, at one point they make us know he is a mid-western Republican so...you know...he can go straight to hell. He's underpowered, never does anything to help win the fight, and just kind of sucks from start to finish. I was delighted Marv and George wrote him out before the Judas Contract.

    Cyborg - Strong stuff. I can see why he was a breakout character (i.e. made it on to the Superfriends cartoon in the 80s). He's visually interesting, a cool power set that overlaps with Colossus and Iron Man but is its own thing, and believable psychology. The fact that he is such good friends with Changeling makes Garfield just a little more bearable. Cyborg is great.

    Raven - I mean sort of interesting? I don't understand her powerset really, they keep just saying she's an Empath but I'm not sure they're super consistent with what that means. It seems like her teammates should be more concerned over the fact that she is constantly taking their pain into herself. Again, I think I vastly prefer the cartoon version who is still fairly serious but feels more like part of the team than comics Raven ever does.


    Overall, as I said in my original post, I am strongly biased towards Claremont's X-Men run. But I was really exited to dive into this run in a serious, linear fashion and I have to say - I get why the book was such a big hit and revelation at the time. The art starts good, and becomes just gorgeous. I mean by the time of Who is Donna Troy and Judas Contract, Perez has fully become George Perez, and it's amazing how many issues of the first 45 he was actually able to draw, along with the origins miniseries and annuals. And Wolfman does do a great job of balancing all the characters and forming some believable relationships between most of them.

    But...

    It's just no where near the level of Claremont's stuff, especially the Claremont/Byrne and onward stuff. Wolfman just isn't as strong a writer. He makes a reference to Star Wars almost every issue and while I know it was big at the time (hell it's still "big") it stands out as lazy and sloppy. The villains, outside of Brother Blood and Deathstroke are just not interesting. Dr. Light and his gang? The Brotherhood of Evil? Thunder and Lightning (I know they aren't "villains")? They're just lame.

    I'm gonna keep going through the run, heck I have 5 more trades to go, but my understanding is that things go downhill from the Judas Contract...which is not encouraging.

    I'm no longer confused as to why the Teen Titan brand has just not hung around the way X-Men has after reading this run so far. I think the Cartoon rules, and I liked the first 30 issues or so of Johns' run, but there isn't a ton here to build on in some ways. Their villains aren't great, they don't really have a "purpose" outside of being a found family for each other, and honestly...a significant percentage of the characters are just not that interesting.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hcmarvel View Post
    Having just reread up through Judas Contract - I just got the TPBS that are collecting the NTT Wolfman run and I'm halfway through Volume 7 of the 12 they've released - this is definitely not a book that is exploring the themes of being a sidekick or being a "Junior Justice League". We're constantly told that Robin is acting like a jerk to Starfire because he's stressed out about being Batman's sidekick and becoming his own hero, but other than Robin we hardly get anything about sidekick stuff. I don't even know if The Flash has even appeared in the book and while Wonder Woman is mentioned some by Donna, she's hardly a character (also, Donna was never really Wonder Woman's Sidekick per se right?).

    This is the first time I've read the run like this, in order from start to finish, and having just reached what is widely considered the peak storyline of the run...I have to say I am not impressed. Some random thoughts:

    - Beast Boy/Changeling is actually the worst. He's gross, a perv, constantly making inappropriate jokes that never land, and the pathos just isn't there. I really cannot stress how every issue he is in he is making a gross joke to Starfire, or Terra, or even Donna. I think we are supposed to be shocked at how violent Terra gets towards Garfield at times but I felt like "YES! SMASH HIM!". He's just an awful, awful character.

    - Donna is great, and clearly the girl I would have had a crush on if I had been reading this in the 80s, but Terry really is a drip. It fundamentally hurts the character that she's with such a boring partner. Also, hardly any of the stories have revolved around Donna save for the Titans storyline (where she gets sort of brainwashed to love one of the Titans and its icky) and Who is Donna Troy which is unquestionably the best issue in the run thus far in my opinion. It blows every other issue out of the water. It's magnificent. But even that is more of a showcase for Robin's detective ability than Donna in some ways. But Donna's great. I'm not looking forward to seeing how Crisis plays with her origins as I believe

    - Starfire is kind of ridiculous. The fact that she has a secret identity is "BANANAS". She is orange and has hair down to her feet but when Dick takes her to a musical she is "Kory Anders" and cannot approach the D.A. because he's not supposed to know she's Starfire? It's total madness. I like Starfire, I think they sort of perfected the character on the cartoon show by removing some of the Blow-Up Doll, Born Sexy Yesterday trope thing. Her storyline with Blackfire was ambitious, but the Omega Men stuff muddled it, and Blackfire is not that interesting a villain. She's just pure evil which is fairly limiting.

    - Robin is...fine. The fact that they thought they could do semi-serious superhero stories with him in those ridiculous shorts is a definite misfire. I know they were sort of trapped into that because that Robin look was so iconic and he was still beholden to the Bat-Books until Teen Titans became popular enough to wrestle the character away, but having Cyborg and Changeling make jokes about his outfit doesn't make it any less silly. In many ways he has the least to do in the book? Yes, he's the leader, but none of the plotlines revolve around him outside of the Vigilante plotline but that story makes no sense as Robin keeps acting like he's uncomfortable acting outside the law when that's...all that he and Batman do. Also, I know they address it, but it's painful watching him be such a jerk to Starfire.

    Kid Flash - Well thank god I read Mark Waid's Wally West before this stuff because New Teen Titan's Wally is the worst. He doesn't want to be there, is rude all the time, at one point they make us know he is a mid-western Republican so...you know...he can go straight to hell. He's underpowered, never does anything to help win the fight, and just kind of sucks from start to finish. I was delighted Marv and George wrote him out before the Judas Contract.

    Cyborg - Strong stuff. I can see why he was a breakout character (i.e. made it on to the Superfriends cartoon in the 80s). He's visually interesting, a cool power set that overlaps with Colossus and Iron Man but is its own thing, and believable psychology. The fact that he is such good friends with Changeling makes Garfield just a little more bearable. Cyborg is great.

    Raven - I mean sort of interesting? I don't understand her powerset really, they keep just saying she's an Empath but I'm not sure they're super consistent with what that means. It seems like her teammates should be more concerned over the fact that she is constantly taking their pain into herself. Again, I think I vastly prefer the cartoon version who is still fairly serious but feels more like part of the team than comics Raven ever does.


    Overall, as I said in my original post, I am strongly biased towards Claremont's X-Men run. But I was really exited to dive into this run in a serious, linear fashion and I have to say - I get why the book was such a big hit and revelation at the time. The art starts good, and becomes just gorgeous. I mean by the time of Who is Donna Troy and Judas Contract, Perez has fully become George Perez, and it's amazing how many issues of the first 45 he was actually able to draw, along with the origins miniseries and annuals. And Wolfman does do a great job of balancing all the characters and forming some believable relationships between most of them.

    But...

    It's just no where near the level of Claremont's stuff, especially the Claremont/Byrne and onward stuff. Wolfman just isn't as strong a writer. He makes a reference to Star Wars almost every issue and while I know it was big at the time (hell it's still "big") it stands out as lazy and sloppy. The villains, outside of Brother Blood and Deathstroke are just not interesting. Dr. Light and his gang? The Brotherhood of Evil? Thunder and Lightning (I know they aren't "villains")? They're just lame.

    I'm gonna keep going through the run, heck I have 5 more trades to go, but my understanding is that things go downhill from the Judas Contract...which is not encouraging.

    I'm no longer confused as to why the Teen Titan brand has just not hung around the way X-Men has after reading this run so far. I think the Cartoon rules, and I liked the first 30 issues or so of Johns' run, but there isn't a ton here to build on in some ways. Their villains aren't great, they don't really have a "purpose" outside of being a found family for each other, and honestly...a significant percentage of the characters are just not that interesting.
    At times, Wolfman wrote Raven as a plot device/ diabolos ex machina instead of a character. The cartoon treated her as an actual character and not as a plot device to screw over the team.

  14. #29
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hcmarvel View Post
    Having just reread up through Judas Contract - I just got the TPBS that are collecting the NTT Wolfman run and I'm halfway through Volume 7 of the 12 they've released - this is definitely not a book that is exploring the themes of being a sidekick or being a "Junior Justice League". We're constantly told that Robin is acting like a jerk to Starfire because he's stressed out about being Batman's sidekick and becoming his own hero, but other than Robin we hardly get anything about sidekick stuff. I don't even know if The Flash has even appeared in the book and while Wonder Woman is mentioned some by Donna, she's hardly a character (also, Donna was never really Wonder Woman's Sidekick per se right?).

    This is the first time I've read the run like this, in order from start to finish, and having just reached what is widely considered the peak storyline of the run...I have to say I am not impressed. Some random thoughts:

    - Beast Boy/Changeling is actually the worst. He's gross, a perv, constantly making inappropriate jokes that never land, and the pathos just isn't there. I really cannot stress how every issue he is in he is making a gross joke to Starfire, or Terra, or even Donna. I think we are supposed to be shocked at how violent Terra gets towards Garfield at times but I felt like "YES! SMASH HIM!". He's just an awful, awful character.

    - Donna is great, and clearly the girl I would have had a crush on if I had been reading this in the 80s, but Terry really is a drip. It fundamentally hurts the character that she's with such a boring partner. Also, hardly any of the stories have revolved around Donna save for the Titans storyline (where she gets sort of brainwashed to love one of the Titans and its icky) and Who is Donna Troy which is unquestionably the best issue in the run thus far in my opinion. It blows every other issue out of the water. It's magnificent. But even that is more of a showcase for Robin's detective ability than Donna in some ways. But Donna's great. I'm not looking forward to seeing how Crisis plays with her origins as I believe

    - Starfire is kind of ridiculous. The fact that she has a secret identity is "BANANAS". She is orange and has hair down to her feet but when Dick takes her to a musical she is "Kory Anders" and cannot approach the D.A. because he's not supposed to know she's Starfire? It's total madness. I like Starfire, I think they sort of perfected the character on the cartoon show by removing some of the Blow-Up Doll, Born Sexy Yesterday trope thing. Her storyline with Blackfire was ambitious, but the Omega Men stuff muddled it, and Blackfire is not that interesting a villain. She's just pure evil which is fairly limiting.

    - Robin is...fine. The fact that they thought they could do semi-serious superhero stories with him in those ridiculous shorts is a definite misfire. I know they were sort of trapped into that because that Robin look was so iconic and he was still beholden to the Bat-Books until Teen Titans became popular enough to wrestle the character away, but having Cyborg and Changeling make jokes about his outfit doesn't make it any less silly. In many ways he has the least to do in the book? Yes, he's the leader, but none of the plotlines revolve around him outside of the Vigilante plotline but that story makes no sense as Robin keeps acting like he's uncomfortable acting outside the law when that's...all that he and Batman do. Also, I know they address it, but it's painful watching him be such a jerk to Starfire.

    Kid Flash - Well thank god I read Mark Waid's Wally West before this stuff because New Teen Titan's Wally is the worst. He doesn't want to be there, is rude all the time, at one point they make us know he is a mid-western Republican so...you know...he can go straight to hell. He's underpowered, never does anything to help win the fight, and just kind of sucks from start to finish. I was delighted Marv and George wrote him out before the Judas Contract.

    Cyborg - Strong stuff. I can see why he was a breakout character (i.e. made it on to the Superfriends cartoon in the 80s). He's visually interesting, a cool power set that overlaps with Colossus and Iron Man but is its own thing, and believable psychology. The fact that he is such good friends with Changeling makes Garfield just a little more bearable. Cyborg is great.

    Raven - I mean sort of interesting? I don't understand her powerset really, they keep just saying she's an Empath but I'm not sure they're super consistent with what that means. It seems like her teammates should be more concerned over the fact that she is constantly taking their pain into herself. Again, I think I vastly prefer the cartoon version who is still fairly serious but feels more like part of the team than comics Raven ever does.


    Overall, as I said in my original post, I am strongly biased towards Claremont's X-Men run. But I was really exited to dive into this run in a serious, linear fashion and I have to say - I get why the book was such a big hit and revelation at the time. The art starts good, and becomes just gorgeous. I mean by the time of Who is Donna Troy and Judas Contract, Perez has fully become George Perez, and it's amazing how many issues of the first 45 he was actually able to draw, along with the origins miniseries and annuals. And Wolfman does do a great job of balancing all the characters and forming some believable relationships between most of them.

    But...

    It's just no where near the level of Claremont's stuff, especially the Claremont/Byrne and onward stuff. Wolfman just isn't as strong a writer. He makes a reference to Star Wars almost every issue and while I know it was big at the time (hell it's still "big") it stands out as lazy and sloppy. The villains, outside of Brother Blood and Deathstroke are just not interesting. Dr. Light and his gang? The Brotherhood of Evil? Thunder and Lightning (I know they aren't "villains")? They're just lame.

    I'm gonna keep going through the run, heck I have 5 more trades to go, but my understanding is that things go downhill from the Judas Contract...which is not encouraging.

    I'm no longer confused as to why the Teen Titan brand has just not hung around the way X-Men has after reading this run so far. I think the Cartoon rules, and I liked the first 30 issues or so of Johns' run, but there isn't a ton here to build on in some ways. Their villains aren't great, they don't really have a "purpose" outside of being a found family for each other, and honestly...a significant percentage of the characters are just not that interesting.
    I feel like the cartoon version dumbed down her character immensely and ruined future impressions/portrayals of Kory.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hcmarvel View Post
    I'm gonna keep going through the run, heck I have 5 more trades to go, but my understanding is that things go downhill from the Judas Contract...which is not encouraging.
    Buddy it really is all down hill from here barring the next big Trigon arc.

    I have a bit of a fonder opinion of all the villains than you seem to, but that was during Perez's time on the title. All of them except Blackfire get blander; she actually has some neat stuff in the "sequalitis"* phase of the the post-Perez era

    *A lot of the next arcs are sequels to earlier arcs, with diminishing returns. More Blackfire stuff, a return of the Titans of myth, more Brother Blood stuff with the addition of the truly awful character of Azrael, more Brotherhood of Evil and Mento...
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 01-18-2021 at 01:59 PM.

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