Marv Wolfman's Teen Titans reputation (as compared to Claremont's X-Men)

[DrNewGod]

...*A lot of the next arcs are sequels to earlier arcs, with diminishing returns. More Blackfire stuff, a return of the Titans of myth, more Brother Blood stuff with the addition of the truly awful character of Azrael, more Brotherhood of Evil and Mento...

It did feel a lot like from the launch of the Baxter series on that Wolfman was at a loss. The opening Baxter arc brought Lilith back to the group in Raven's place, and then both she and Azrael were shuffled off the board relatively fast. It seemed that Wolfman was continually steering boldly toward new directions, deciding they won't work, careening in a different direction, repeat.

[LifeIsILL]

- Robin is...fine. The fact that they thought they could do semi-serious superhero stories with him in those ridiculous shorts is a definite misfire. I know they were sort of trapped into that because that Robin look was so iconic and he was still beholden to the Bat-Books until Teen Titans became popular enough to wrestle the character away, but having Cyborg and Changeling make jokes about his outfit doesn't make it any less silly.

I mean if you care about stuff like that then yeah.....you probably won't enjoy it. None of the characters have the iconic look and costumes of the X-Men but that's not the point. I'm sure DC wasn't even going for that.

It's just no where near the level of Claremont's stuff, especially the Claremont/Byrne and onward stuff. Wolfman just isn't as strong a writer. He makes a reference to Star Wars almost every issue and while I know it was big at the time (hell it's still "big") it stands out as lazy and sloppy. The villains, outside of Brother Blood and Deathstroke are just not interesting. Dr. Light and his gang? The Brotherhood of Evil? Thunder and Lightning (I know they aren't "villains")? They're just lame.

I disagree. Yes Claremont's peak during Uncanny X-Men run is untouched classic. But I feel that the 80s Teen Titans comics were overall more consistent, not saying it's better or anything. There were some dumb stuff in Uncanny X-Men too, actually Claremont's run has 2 of my least favorite X-Men stories ever probably.

I think I read Titans after Uncanny and I was just really surprised how dark the stories were. It was probably the darkest DC book out at the time, much more violent and graphic than the Batman comics. And it didn't feel forced or edgy either(unlike New 52 or.....X-Men), it just felt like a natural progression of how things were. They had some badass villains who were just out to kill like Deathstroke, Trigon, Cheshire etc...But what I liked was the consistency throughout the entire 80s Titans books, it didn't really have epic highs or anything but it stayed pretty consistent throughout.

And I think you're underrating "corny" villains like Dr.Light. Brother Blood is just edgy and beyond absurd. Dr.Light is corny but he's an old-school Justice League and Titans villain who is a way more flexible character. He can be scary....or corny....or just a complete mess....depending on the story. In fact, DC needs more cheesy villains instead of trying to always create some Lord Blood types. Yuck.

*A lot of the next arcs are sequels to earlier arcs, with diminishing returns. More Blackfire stuff, a return of the Titans of myth, more Brother Blood stuff with the addition of the truly awful character of Azrael, more Brotherhood of Evil and Mento...

Completely forgot about Blackfire. The showdown between her and Starfire was really epic. I think it was Annual #2 or something. If you guys don't enjoy stuff like that....then....what do you enjoy? lol

[king81992]

I feel like the cartoon version dumbed down her character immensely and ruined future impressions/portrayals of Kory.

Conner and Palmotti dumbed down Starfire in their comic, but I would take that over Lobdell's take on her character. Cartoon version was fine, wished she had gotten a season.

[HandofPrometheus]

Conner and Palmotti dumbed down Starfire in their comic, but I would take that over Lobdell's take on her character. Cartoon version was fine, wished she had gotten a season.

I loathe that solo series and whatever Lobdell was writing during the New 52 days.

[lgcruz]

Yes, blackfire is possibly the most underrated titans antagonist, and I say antagonist because one of the last good things Wolfman did was give her a believable redemption arc that had her legitimately become tamaran´s ruler without ever joining the side of the titans, which stands to this day.

I´ll point out that Wolfman doesn´t hate Kid Flash. It´s that from his perspective a speedster doesn´t work in a team book, because their powers at that point were so ridiculous that logically they should be able to fix whatever problem arises before the rest of the team can even get there, so he had him handicapped the whole time. Note that it´s wolfman that sets the stage for wally to replace barry in COIE.

As for wally and changeling being annoying, you have to realize that unlike many writers today wolfman was concerned about being too biased in his own ideas, so he crudely tries to compensate. Wally being conservative balances out the team´s general left leaning ideals, changeling and terra being jerks kept the team from being too upstanding and boyscout-ish, starfire was as emotional as raven is reserved, etc.

I do think you should pay a bit more attention to changeling´s character. One thing that isn´t clear if you just read the trade version of the judas contract is that the protagonists of that story are changeling, terra and deathstroke, with the latter taking the whole idea from the former´s doom patrol history. Taking the wider perspective, it not only begins since issue 1 but it also ends a bit later than the trade stops at, with the story of the trial of the terminator/shades of gray.

[SiegePerilous02]

I do think you should pay a bit more attention to changeling´s character. One thing that isn´t clear if you just read the trade version of the judas contract is that the protagonists of that story are changeling, terra and deathstroke, with the latter taking the whole idea from the former´s doom patrol history. Taking the wider perspective, it not only begins since issue 1 but it also ends a bit later than the trade stops at, with the story of the trial of the terminator/shades of gray.

The problem is that those broad aspects of Gar's history and character can work just fine and making him a horny sexual harasser is unnecessary. The cartoon adapted him as the baby of the group who used jokes to cover up his pain, but without stuff like telling Starfire to take her top off every other episode, and he worked just as well if not better.

The shades of gray in the follow up issues were mostly about absolving Slade and heaping all of the blame on Terra, and they do not hold up well at all. Even if Terra was legit evil, Gar should not peacefully resolve anything with Slade. Slade even says in those issues his attacking the Titans was not personal, which contradicts the attitude he had TJC where it comes off as very personal and sadistic. Again, the cartoon probably executed its storyline better overall; Slade's a bastard that doesn't deserve any sympathy for trying to kill some teens while grooming and manipulating another one to help him do it.

[Hcmarvel]

\
I´ll point out that Wolfman doesn´t hate Kid Flash. It´s that from his perspective a speedster doesn´t work in a team book, because their powers at that point were so ridiculous that logically they should be able to fix whatever problem arises before the rest of the team can even get there, so he had him handicapped the whole time. Note that it´s wolfman that sets the stage for wally to replace barry in COIE.

As for wally and changeling being annoying, you have to realize that unlike many writers today wolfman was concerned about being too biased in his own ideas, so he crudely tries to compensate. Wally being conservative balances out the team´s general left leaning ideals, changeling and terra being jerks kept the team from being too upstanding and boyscout-ish, starfire was as emotional as raven is reserved, etc.

I do think you should pay a bit more attention to changeling´s character. One thing that isn´t clear if you just read the trade version of the judas contract is that the protagonists of that story are changeling, terra and deathstroke, with the latter taking the whole idea from the former´s doom patrol history. Taking the wider perspective, it not only begins since issue 1 but it also ends a bit later than the trade stops at, with the story of the trial of the terminator/shades of gray.

I don't think Wolfman hates Kid Flash - I'm saying he made me hate Kid Flash. Maybe it's bad timing as I'm reading this concurrent to a bunch of traitorous Republicans storming the Capitol building but now I have to think about Kid Flash as a future Trump supporter? He's a 1980s Republican...does that mean he thinks AIDS is not a big deal because it's killing gay people? Does he not believe in a woman's right to choose? How am I supposed to believe he became friends with Pied Piper just a few years later? It throws his entire character into the toilet for me.

Wolfman doesn't actually have any of the other characters declare themselves "liberal" - there is no real indication that Robin or Garfield are "liberal" in the political sense to be honest - but does go out of his way to make Kid Flash declare he's a conservative to justify being just monstrous to the original Starfire character from USSR. Ugh. I really wish I had never read that Starfire issue because Wally West has always been one of my top 3 DC characters thanks to Waid's run and Grant Morrison's JLA but now...he can go back to being a murderer or back into continuity limbo for all I care.

And I just disagree that Changeling is a main character of the Judas Contract - he has perhaps the most resonant dramatic moment in trying to come to terms with Terra's villainous nature - but the main character of that arc is clearly Deathstroke and to a lesser extent Nightwing.

And I'm sorry but Changeling really is just awful. Every single line out of his mouth to a female character is a very aggressive sexual harassment comment. I mean...not occasionally...it's in every single issue that he does it. It'd be okay if it was every now and then, or if he just had such a big crush on Starfire that he couldn't help it (he is the youngest of the group so it'd be forgivable for him to act like a total idiot with someone that looks like Kory) but it's every female character they meet. It's just terrible. It doesn't make any sense that anyone would be friends with him. He's just a creep.

[kcekada]

Isn't Storm a more adequate visual analogue to Raven?

No. I get what he was saying Starfire was a cross between Storm and Phoenix visually. Byrne had already introduced the trail of fire extending from Phoenix's hair before Starfire debuted.

Raven also seemed to have been partly inspired by Phoenix with her huge dark raven sold self -- whereas Phoenix had her phoenix. I do think Raven had a lot more going for her than that though. Visually, Perez was also inspired by the Phantom Stranger.

I think there were a lot of X-Men analogs, but I don't think Changeling had anything to do with Nightcrawler.

[Hcmarvel]

Slade's a bastard that doesn't deserve any sympathy for trying to kill some teens while grooming and manipulating another one to help him do it.

And yes, I know it was a different time and they're both villains and all that...but the Terra/Slade sexual relationship thing is just not...good. And it makes any attempt to redeem Slade just not functional I think. I know that's strange - we accept murderers becoming anti-heroes or good guys all the time in comics so why not a child molester as it is technically a "lesser" crime - but it is what it is. Once you have a relatively old man sleeping with a 15/16 year old...and not just sleeping with her but grooming her as Siegeperilous points out - he's not a character than can ever be seen as anything but a villain in my opinion.

[kcekada]

Completely forgot about Blackfire. The showdown between her and Starfire was really epic. I think it was Annual #2 or something. If you guys don't enjoy stuff like that....then....what do you enjoy? lol

That annual is definitely a classic.

Anyone reading this stuff for the first time is bound to be disappointed (more by the writing -- the art from Cockrum, Byrne and Perez is really stellar-- though some of Cockrum's art suffered from lousy inkers). The writing, though, is definitely of its time. It was fresh back then, but if I read something from that era that I haven't read before --- it definitely can come across silly in places.

[Hcmarvel]

No. I get what he was saying Starfire was a cross between Storm and Phoenix visually. Byrne had already introduced the trail of fire extending from Phoenix's hair before Starfire debuted.

Raven also seemed to have been partly inspired by Phoenix with her huge dark raven sold self -- whereas Phoenix had her phoenix. I do think Raven had a lot more going for her than that though. Visually, Perez was also inspired by the Phantom Stranger.

I think there were a lot of X-Men analogs, but I don't think Changeling had anything to do with Nightcrawler.

I think that's one of the things that's really cool about these two books being the definitive superhero books of the early 1980s (Along with Daredevil and Legion I guess) - - there is are a lot of comparisons you can make between the teams but they really are not one-to-one comparisons that hold up. They are very, very different squads. The NTT have no Wolverine character, but the X-Men have no character that feels as modern as Cyborg. It Robin and Cyclops are nothing alike outside of bearing the responsibility of leadership.

I mean yes, Starfire and Storm are both willing to strip naked a lot but their characters are NOTHING alike.

Raven and Phoenix doesn't really hold up under any real scrutiny either.

I can imagine how fun it would have been to be a reader in 1982 and have both books offer such different takes on the idea of young superheroes becoming friends and saving the world. It's legitimately cool.

[Crazy Diamond]

I don't think Wolfman hates Kid Flash - I'm saying he made me hate Kid Flash. Maybe it's bad timing as I'm reading this concurrent to a bunch of traitorous Republicans storming the Capitol building but now I have to think about Kid Flash as a future Trump supporter? He's a 1980s Republican...does that mean he thinks AIDS is not a big deal because it's killing gay people? Does he not believe in a woman's right to choose? How am I supposed to believe he became friends with Pied Piper just a few years later? It throws his entire character into the toilet for me.

Wolfman doesn't actually have any of the other characters declare themselves "liberal" - there is no real indication that Robin or Garfield are "liberal" in the political sense to be honest - but does go out of his way to make Kid Flash declare he's a conservative to justify being just monstrous to the original Starfire character from USSR. Ugh. I really wish I had never read that Starfire issue because Wally West has always been one of my top 3 DC characters thanks to Waid's run and Grant Morrison's JLA but now...he can go back to being a murderer or back into continuity limbo for all I care.

And I just disagree that Changeling is a main character of the Judas Contract - he has perhaps the most resonant dramatic moment in trying to come to terms with Terra's villainous nature - but the main character of that arc is clearly Deathstroke and to a lesser extent Nightwing.

And I'm sorry but Changeling really is just awful. Every single line out of his mouth to a female character is a very aggressive sexual harassment comment. I mean...not occasionally...it's in every single issue that he does it. It'd be okay if it was every now and then, or if he just had such a big crush on Starfire that he couldn't help it (he is the youngest of the group so it'd be forgivable for him to act like a total idiot with someone that looks like Kory) but it's every female character they meet. It's just terrible. It doesn't make any sense that anyone would be friends with him. He's just a creep.

The problem with Kid Flash being a Republican is that Woflman writes him like a caricature of a Republican. It would be like having the writer of Liberality for All or Donald the Caveman write a liberal. Just a collection of stereotypes with no attempt to even explain why the hell he's like that other than "oh he's from the Midwest so of course he's conservative". I mean, Guy Gardner was brain damaged and turned into a stereotypical Reagan supporter but at least he was funny and deep down inside was a good guy who was traumatized and had no one in his corner other than Ice. Wally doesn't even get that in his run.

When I read the Wolfman/Perez run in high school (this was years after it had ended but I was curious since there were fans online claiming that it was better than the Young Justice comic) I remember thinking the following:
a) Why did the Flash even need a sidekick? You have super speed and can vibrate through walls but you still need help? COME ON.
b) Wally West became a way better character once he became the Flash.
c) Maybe he shouldn't be on the Titans if the writer is just gonna nerf him and make him suck.
d) How is this better than Young Justice again?

Also I don't want to spoil the run but yeah it gets really rough after Judas Contract. Titans always had the problem of most of their villains being underwhelming or outright garbage. Even Brain and Monseuir Mallah were better in Doom Patrol during Morrison's run then they ever where under Marv Woflman's pen. For all the hate the 2003 cartoon got from Wolfman/Perez fans back then they definitely made the right call in redesigning and giving better motives to characters like Jinx, Gizmo, and that burly dude (think he was called Mammoth).

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think Wolfman hates Kid Flash - I'm saying he made me hate Kid Flash. Maybe it's bad timing as I'm reading this concurrent to a bunch of traitorous Republicans storming the Capitol building but now I have to think about Kid Flash as a future Trump supporter? He's a 1980s Republican...does that mean he thinks AIDS is not a big deal because it's killing gay people? Does he not believe in a woman's right to choose? How am I supposed to believe he became friends with Pied Piper just a few years later? It throws his entire character into the toilet for me

I never read the issues in question, but I believe Wally wasn't comfortable with Piper at first and gradually got over it and became more accepting. The end of the Russian Starfire issue also has him clearly feel shocked and guilty for acting like a jerk, so we can chalk it up to a 20-something acting like a creep but hopefully learning from the experience.

[Hcmarvel]

Anyone reading this stuff for the first time is bound to be disappointed (more by the writing -- the art from Cockrum, Byrne and Perez is really stellar-- though some of Cockrum's art suffered from lousy inkers). The writing, though, is definitely of its time. It was fresh back then, but if I read something from that era that I haven't read before --- it definitely can come across silly in places.

Eh, I started reading comics in the early 1990s so I am pretty used to that style of writing - all the trades that were available back then was mostly collecting stuff of this era (Judas Contract, Great Darkness Saga, Dark Phoenix, Fall of the Mutants, Miller and Simonson stuff). I've read a ton of 1970s and 80s, comics so I am fairly forgiving of dated references or era-specific stylistic choices. I really just think Wolfman is not as good at it as the reputation of this run would have me believe.

NTT feels fresh because the art is just spectacular, and Wolfman and Perez really hit it out of the park with the characters they chose and created, and some of the plotting is definitely reminiscent of Claremont's work on X-Men in terms of planting seeds for stories that don't pay off for issues or years to come.

I always credit that scripting development to Claremont because he became so famous for dangling plot threads and even the Phoenix saga is a fairly slow developing plotline and that started in the late 70s but I don't actually know who pioneered that style of dropping seeds for future plotlines and being patient in going back to them. I mean you have things like the Green Goblin's secret identity being a mystery for much of Lee/Ditko's Spider-Man, but who gets credit for the very specific storytelling that both Claremont and Wolfman employ on X-Men and NTT where one page interludes are dropped into issues to set up stories that don't pay off for months or years to come?

[Frontier]

The problem with Kid Flash being a Republican is that Woflman writes him like a caricature of a Republican. It would be like having the writer of Liberality for All or Donald the Caveman write a liberal. Just a collection of stereotypes with no attempt to even explain why the hell he's like that other than "oh he's from the Midwest so of course he's conservative". I mean, Guy Gardner was brain damaged and turned into a stereotypical Reagan supporter but at least he was funny and deep down inside was a good guy who was traumatized and had no one in his corner other than Ice. Wally doesn't even get that in his run.

When I read the Wolfman/Perez run in high school (this was years after it had ended but I was curious since there were fans online claiming that it was better than the Young Justice comic) I remember thinking the following:
a) Why did the Flash even need a sidekick? You have super speed and can vibrate through walls but you still need help? COME ON.
b) Wally West became a way better character once he became the Flash.
c) Maybe he shouldn't be on the Titans if the writer is just gonna nerf him and make him suck.
d) How is this better than Young Justice again?

Also I don't want to spoil the run but yeah it gets really rough after Judas Contract. Titans always had the problem of most of their villains being underwhelming or outright garbage. Even Brain and Monseuir Mallah were better in Doom Patrol during Morrison's run then they ever where under Marv Woflman's pen. For all the hate the 2003 cartoon got from Wolfman/Perez fans back then they definitely made the right call in redesigning and giving better motives to characters like Jinx, Gizmo, and that burly dude (think he was called Mammoth).

Two Speedsters are better than one .

It also probably helped that Flash's villains were starting to organize themselves, so Barry could use the help. Plus there's the relationship with Wally and how that builds into his relationship with Wally.