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  1. #46
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I loved Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman. Probably because I was more familiar with Azzarello at the time than Wonder Woman? I'd be interested in hearing from people who despise that run if they think it would be just as bad if it wasn't connected to the Wonder Woman character at all.
    It would definitely have been better without WW. As it was, it had so many tasteless elements that just don't belong in the Wonder Woman comics. Amazon rapists, misogynist Orion, The First Born's bestiality, a large focus on men rather than women... the list goes on.

    Why does it seem so rare that we get a Wonder Woman run that is well liked by her fans? Why does it seem so easy to get Wonder Woman wrong? Is it because the writers assigned to her aren't fans of the character? Is it because of editorial interferance?
    A little bit of A, a little bit of B. I think creative teams usually fall into three categories:

    1. Creators who have little to no knowledge of Wonder Woman or her mythos so they create their own stuff and ignore anything from the past because they simply don't know or care about it. Examples: J. Michael Stracyznski, Brian Azzarello, Geoff Johns.

    2. Creators who are die-hard fans of Wonder Woman but aren't able to execute amazing and prominent stories using the knowledge that they have. Examples: Phil Jimenez, Steve Orlando. (NOTE: That's not to say these runs are bad, just not as noteworthy as Rucka or Perez. I love both runs, but even I can admit they are "average".)

    3. Creators who are forced to use (or not use) elements from DC editorial that otherwise botch what could've been a great run. Examples: Mariko Tamaki, Gail Simone, James Robinson.

  2. #47
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I loved Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman. Probably because I was more familiar with Azzarello at the time than Wonder Woman? I'd be interested in hearing from people who despise that run if they think it would be just as bad if it wasn't connected to the Wonder Woman character at all.
    I think if the run had been published by Image comics and was about a superheroine clearly modeled after Wonder Woman, but not actually Wonder Woman herself, it would read much better than it does.

    It'd be a great modern day Greek myth meets horror comic with a badass female hero, and probably one of my favorite books. But making it so it is Wonder Woman and her Amazons portrayed that way ruins a lot of it.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    I am surprised no one has mentioned Jodi Picoult. Her run was abysmal on a level with Meredith Finch. Neither knew anything about the character and admitted it in interviews. Picoult saying she would get her information from her son about the character and Finch would let her husband tell her about the character. Neither seeming to want to do any actual research on their own.

  4. #49
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    If the question is 'What is the most disappointing WW run?' I'd personally pick Walter Simonson, as he wrote like a 5 issue story or something that intentionally made no sense. You'd think Thor's greatest author would have been a good fit for WW, but not at all. I also think it was his run where they found a way to get rid of her then current black boyfriend.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few necks." - Wonder Woman, probably

  5. #50
    Incredible Member blanchett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think if the run had been published by Image comics and was about a superheroine clearly modeled after Wonder Woman, but not actually Wonder Woman herself, it would read much better than it does.

    It'd be a great modern day Greek myth meets horror comic with a badass female hero, and probably one of my favorite books. But making it so it is Wonder Woman and her Amazons portrayed that way ruins a lot of it.
    I loved Azzarello's run. I loved the Vertigo take. I didn't get the reaction to the change in the Amazons. I know some people see them as some sort of ideal but the reality is in the positive depictions they are a totally gender biased society, a monarchy, isolationist and xenophobic. I don't look at their society and think that's where I want society to go. It's interesting to look at but lets not pretend the Amazons represent the ideals we want in society anymore than say the Inhumans, that's what Wonder Woman herself is for.

    I agree on Tom Taylor because the Injustice depiction of Wonder Woman is her worse depiction. I do like his Dceased Wonder Woman though.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    I loved Azzarello's run. I loved the Vertigo take. I didn't get the reaction to the change in the Amazons. I know some people see them as some sort of ideal but the reality is in the positive depictions they are a totally gender biased society, a monarchy, isolationist and xenophobic. I don't look at their society and think that's where I want society to go. It's interesting to look at but lets not pretend the Amazons represent the ideals we want in society anymore than say the Inhumans, that's what Wonder Woman herself is for.

    I agree on Tom Taylor because the Injustice depiction of Wonder Woman is her worse depiction. I do like his Dceased Wonder Woman though.
    I mean, it makes it rather hard to believe someone like Diana would even come from society like Azz’s Amazons and also notable that seemingly all the important stuff about her came from the male figures in her life while the traditional female figures got thrown under the bus or deemphasized.

  7. #52
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    I loved Azzarello's run. I loved the Vertigo take. I didn't get the reaction to the change in the Amazons. I know some people see them as some sort of ideal but the reality is in the positive depictions they are a totally gender biased society, a monarchy, isolationist and xenophobic. I don't look at their society and think that's where I want society to go. It's interesting to look at but lets not pretend the Amazons represent the ideals we want in society anymore than say the Inhumans, that's what Wonder Woman herself is for.

    I agree on Tom Taylor because the Injustice depiction of Wonder Woman is her worse depiction. I do like his Dceased Wonder Woman though.
    The problem is though that Azzarello's version goes in the complete opposite direction. And of the previous versions, the Amazons were overall good people that didn't trust the outside world and needed to get over that bias, but they had good reason to have it in the first place considering how badly things went for them before. Paradise Island should be more a thing that has a lot of positive stuff to offer the outside world but isn't totally "complete" until it becomes more inclusive and opens its borders. But we've seen that go badly for the Amazons when they give it a chance, like in Perez's run when Circe and the Bana tribe framed them as murderers, and in Rucka's where all the nations in the world wanted access to their tech while offering nothing in return, and threatening their desired neutrality.

    Azz's version of the Amazons go from being good people with some uncomfortable feelings regarding the outside world, to murdering helpless unarmed men and killing male babies. Both them and the Perez Amazons didn't have advancements, but at least the Perez ones were good people. The combo of the Amazons being stuck in the bronze age and being baby killers means they have nothing of value to offer the world and it is baffling they produced someone like Diana. Marston's subverting the Amazons myth in the 40s is somehow more progressive than Azzarello essentially playing it straight in 2011.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    It would definitely have been better without WW. As it was, it had so many tasteless elements that just don't belong in the Wonder Woman comics. Amazon rapists, misogynist Orion, The First Born's bestiality, a large focus on men rather than women... the list goes on.



    A little bit of A, a little bit of B. I think creative teams usually fall into three categories:

    1. Creators who have little to no knowledge of Wonder Woman or her mythos so they create their own stuff and ignore anything from the past because they simply don't know or care about it. Examples: J. Michael Stracyznski, Brian Azzarello, Geoff Johns.

    2. Creators who are die-hard fans of Wonder Woman but aren't able to execute amazing and prominent stories using the knowledge that they have. Examples: Phil Jimenez, Steve Orlando. (NOTE: That's not to say these runs are bad, just not as noteworthy as Rucka or Perez. I love both runs, but even I can admit they are "average".)

    3. Creators who are forced to use (or not use) elements from DC editorial that otherwise botch what could've been a great run. Examples: Mariko Tamaki, Gail Simone, James Robinson.
    I don't think Phil's run is given enough credit given the MASSIVE outside influences impacting him in just about every single arc. He had to deal with restrictions from the Batoffices, he had to redraw huge chunks of the art because of 9/11 and he had to accommodate not one but two crossovers that impacted his own arcs mid-stride. #Phil'sGotGrace because he handled all of that and turned in THE single best OWAW chapter and made use of the Wonderjobbing the crossover foisted on her.

  9. #54
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I read in some interview that Jimenez's run was originally going to be a stand alone 12 part series that would be outside of continuity. And pieces of it ended up being re-worked into the main run when he was brought on.

    He did great with what he had, but I would have loved to see what that 12 issue series would have been like. Especially if it still included stuff like the new Themyscira and Villainy Inc.

  10. #55
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    My knee-jerk response is Byrne, but that dead horse has been beaten ad nauseum around here, so I guess I'll throw my vote at Finch and Picoult (sorry ladies ).

    Oh, and I'm so pleasantly surprised that William Messner-Loeb's name hasn't shown up in this thread!
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  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    My knee-jerk response is Byrne, but that dead horse has been beaten ad nauseum around here, so I guess I'll throw my vote at Finch and Picoult (sorry ladies ).

    Oh, and I'm so pleasantly surprised that William Messner-Loeb's name hasn't shown up in this thread!
    I read through the recent trade collection of the first few issues and I have to say enjoyed it more than I thought it would. Even the taco whiz stuff has some cheesy charm to it, though I have to agree with the criticisms on the art in his run (aside from the Boland covers ) and this was the stuff largely before Deodato.

  12. #57
    Amazing Member Bound4olympus's Avatar
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    Jodi Piccoult and Meredith Finch come to mind immediately.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    It would definitely have been better without WW. As it was, it had so many tasteless elements that just don't belong in the Wonder Woman comics. Amazon rapists, misogynist Orion, The First Born's bestiality, a large focus on men rather than women... the list goes on.



    A little bit of A, a little bit of B. I think creative teams usually fall into three categories:

    1. Creators who have little to no knowledge of Wonder Woman or her mythos so they create their own stuff and ignore anything from the past because they simply don't know or care about it. Examples: J. Michael Stracyznski, Brian Azzarello, Geoff Johns.

    2. Creators who are die-hard fans of Wonder Woman but aren't able to execute amazing and prominent stories using the knowledge that they have. Examples: Phil Jimenez, Steve Orlando. (NOTE: That's not to say these runs are bad, just not as noteworthy as Rucka or Perez. I love both runs, but even I can admit they are "average".)

    3. Creators who are forced to use (or not use) elements from DC editorial that otherwise botch what could've been a great run. Examples: Mariko Tamaki, Gail Simone, James Robinson.
    What editorial mandates were forced upon Gail Simone?
    Last edited by Timothy Hunter; 01-20-2021 at 10:22 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    I loved Azzarello's run. I loved the Vertigo take. I didn't get the reaction to the change in the Amazons. I know some people see them as some sort of ideal but the reality is in the positive depictions they are a totally gender biased society, a monarchy, isolationist and xenophobic. I don't look at their society and think that's where I want society to go. It's interesting to look at but lets not pretend the Amazons represent the ideals we want in society anymore than say the Inhumans, that's what Wonder Woman herself is for.

    I agree on Tom Taylor because the Injustice depiction of Wonder Woman is her worse depiction. I do like his Dceased Wonder Woman though.



    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The problem is though that Azzarello's version goes in the complete opposite direction. And of the previous versions, the Amazons were overall good people that didn't trust the outside world and needed to get over that bias, but they had good reason to have it in the first place considering how badly things went for them before. Paradise Island should be more a thing that has a lot of positive stuff to offer the outside world but isn't totally "complete" until it becomes more inclusive and opens its borders. But we've seen that go badly for the Amazons when they give it a chance, like in Perez's run when Circe and the Bana tribe framed them as murderers, and in Rucka's where all the nations in the world wanted access to their tech while offering nothing in return, and threatening their desired neutrality.

    Azz's version of the Amazons go from being good people with some uncomfortable feelings regarding the outside world, to murdering helpless unarmed men and killing male babies. Both them and the Perez Amazons didn't have advancements, but at least the Perez ones were good people. The combo of the Amazons being stuck in the bronze age and being baby killers means they have nothing of value to offer the world and it is baffling they produced someone like Diana. Marston's subverting the Amazons myth in the 40s is somehow more progressive than Azzarello essentially playing it straight in 2011.
    I've never understood the idea that just because Diana is the main hero she is the only character, let alone the only Amazon that should be sympathetic and heroic.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    My thoughts are that the First Born only survived the attach you mentioned because Ares took the brunt of the blow.


    The spear went right through the both of them. And this was after he'd shrugged off hits from Diana in god mode.



    I don't care if Orion had been a pervert towards Diana, two wrongs don't make a right especially for someone who usually preaches love over war. Her response was over the top and crude.
    You're acting as if she killed or permanently maimed him. He'd been sexually harassing her since the moment they met and talking him out of it hadn't worked.

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