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  1. #121
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    In most versions Swamp thing is a human turned into aplant. It's a reasonable question.

  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    In most versions Swamp thing is a human turned into aplant. It's a reasonable question.
    Think of some vegans if it helps. Some turn to veganism because they find the butchering and consumption of animal products abhorrent, so much so they'll crusade against it. Many of them likely ate meat as children and may have enjoyed it until they learned how it came to their plate.

    Swamp Thing, even when he began life as Alec Holland, has evolved into the Avatar of the Green and now operates from the mindset that plant life is sacred and it's his duty to protect nature at all costs, even above humans. He absolutely would think it's more important than human life, it's his calling and his role in nature. He perceives the world differently than we do.

    And normally, most writers would have Diana, a creature herself removed from the status quo we find normal and had to acclimate to our society-- one who is friends with other unique individuals from equally strange worlds/cultures (Clark, J'onn, Arthur)-- would be more sensitive. But instead, she delivers a PEOPLE FIRST boot to the face that you'd expect from Bruce "I don't take lives unless they don't look human" Wayne. It just reads way too warlike for Diana. Remember, she's also friend to all animals and understands the concept of a natural order in the universe more than most. I think she'd just handle it a bit more diplomatically.

    I will say I feel Diana would put human life on top, but again, she'd find a better way of trying to resolve it than accusing the Avatar of the Green putting the Green first as somehow being in the wrong. It'd be like telling a mother she was wrong to protect her child's life at the cost of another person's. Maybe the person who died was someone you cared about, but a mother will protect her young. Avatars of the Green put the Green first. Diana would and should know this, but the Finch team didn't really understand Diana. They just assigned the book to a big name (Finch on art) and hoped it'd sell. Or at least that's what DC's handling of the WW book has been most of the time. Just put someone on it and whatever, it's WW. It'll sell 30k and we'll pretend we care. Can we turn her more into Xena yet?
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-23-2021 at 06:05 PM.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Sure, the vegetative injustice line was a bit silly but compared to Diana crunching Orion's testicles, it's a far lesser violation to her character.
    Never understood why people carp on "vegetative injustice" so much when it's nowhere near as bad as Batman's "Bees, my God" or for me Hippolyta's "Babies, babies, babies".

    HIPPOLYTA babies.jpg

  4. #124
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Given Diana's character, you would think she would at least try to see things from Swamp Thing's perspective.

  5. #125
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Think of some vegans if it helps. Some turn to veganism because they find the butchering and consumption of animal products abhorrent, so much so they'll crusade against it. Many of them likely ate meat as children and may have enjoyed it until they learned how it came to their plate.

    Swamp Thing, even when he began life as Alec Holland, has evolved into the Avatar of the Green and now operates from the mindset that plant life is sacred and it's his duty to protect nature at all costs, even above humans. He absolutely would think it's more important than human life, it's his calling and his role in nature. He perceives the world differently than we do.

    And normally, most writers would have Diana, a creature herself removed from the status quo we find normal and had to acclimate to our society-- one who is friends with other unique individuals from equally strange worlds/cultures (Clark, J'onn, Arthur)-- would be more sensitive. But instead, she delivers a PEOPLE FIRST boot to the face that you'd expect from Bruce "I don't take lives unless they don't look human" Wayne. It just reads way too warlike for Diana. Remember, she's also friend to all animals and understands the concept of a natural order in the universe more than most. I think she'd just handle it a bit more diplomatically.

    I will say I feel Diana would put human life on top, but again, she'd find a better way of trying to resolve it than accusing the Avatar of the Green putting the Green first as somehow being in the wrong. It'd be like telling a mother she was wrong to protect her child's life at the cost of another person's. Maybe the person who died was someone you cared about, but a mother will protect her young. Avatars of the Green put the Green first. Diana would and should know this, but the Finch team didn't really understand Diana. They just assigned the book to a big name (Finch on art) and hoped it'd sell. Or at least that's what DC's handling of the WW book has been most of the time. Just put someone on it and whatever, it's WW. It'll sell 30k and we'll pretend we care. Can we turn her more into Xena yet?
    Vegans isn't a good example to judge the hierarchy of life forms since they do value animals more than most people, but they don't claim that a animal is worth "more" than a human, some just think they are worth "as much".

    I also assume that Swamp Thing would put a plant above a human, from the little I read of him, but I don't know if Diana knows him well enough to assume such a thing. I don't really know the context of that fight tho.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Given Diana's character, you would think she would at least try to see things from Swamp Thing's perspective.
    That panel is kind of amusing nowadays given between JLD, Death Metal, and now Immortal Wonder Woman, they’ve made them buddies for the most part.

  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Vegans isn't a good example to judge the hierarchy of life forms since they do value animals more than most people, but they don't claim that a animal is worth "more" than a human, some just think they are worth "as much".

    I also assume that Swamp Thing would put a plant above a human, from the little I read of him, but I don't know if Diana knows him well enough to assume such a thing. I don't really know the context of that fight tho.
    I use it more to illustrate that some people find animals part of the circle of consumption while others think they shouldn't-- but both come from the same beginnings-- like Alec. I know it's not a direct one-to-one. Apologies if I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

    I never read the full issue either, but I just don't see how Diana would ever get there screaming in righteous indignation. That entire volume of Wonder Woman is just decidedly not for me.

  8. #128
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Think of some vegans if it helps. Some turn to veganism because they find the butchering and consumption of animal products abhorrent, so much so they'll crusade against it. Many of them likely ate meat as children and may have enjoyed it until they learned how it came to their plate.

    Swamp Thing, even when he began life as Alec Holland, has evolved into the Avatar of the Green and now operates from the mindset that plant life is sacred and it's his duty to protect nature at all costs, even above humans. He absolutely would think it's more important than human life, it's his calling and his role in nature. He perceives the world differently than we do.

    And normally, most writers would have Diana, a creature herself removed from the status quo we find normal and had to acclimate to our society-- one who is friends with other unique individuals from equally strange worlds/cultures (Clark, J'onn, Arthur)-- would be more sensitive. But instead, she delivers a PEOPLE FIRST boot to the face that you'd expect from Bruce "I don't take lives unless they don't look human" Wayne. It just reads way too warlike for Diana. Remember, she's also friend to all animals and understands the concept of a natural order in the universe more than most. I think she'd just handle it a bit more diplomatically.

    I will say I feel Diana would put human life on top, but again, she'd find a better way of trying to resolve it than accusing the Avatar of the Green putting the Green first as somehow being in the wrong. It'd be like telling a mother she was wrong to protect her child's life at the cost of another person's. Maybe the person who died was someone you cared about, but a mother will protect her young. Avatars of the Green put the Green first. Diana would and should know this, but the Finch team didn't really understand Diana. They just assigned the book to a big name (Finch on art) and hoped it'd sell. Or at least that's what DC's handling of the WW book has been most of the time. Just put someone on it and whatever, it's WW. It'll sell 30k and we'll pretend we care. Can we turn her more into Xena yet?
    I didn’t read the Finch run, but I was on these boards and I recall the way folks howled over that “vegetative injustice” line and this battle. I didn’t get the uproar. But you’ve sort of made me understand...sort of.
    I only support clay origins.

  9. #129
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Never understood why people carp on "vegetative injustice" so much when it's nowhere near as bad as Batman's "Bees, my God" or for me Hippolyta's "Babies, babies, babies".

    HIPPOLYTA babies.jpg
    I don’t understand why this line should particularly rankle either. Maybe I’m reading “Babies, babies, babies” in my head with a different delivery than you are.
    I only support clay origins.

  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    I didn’t read the Finch run, but I was on these boards and I recall the way folks howled over that “vegetative injustice” line and this battle. I didn’t get the uproar. But you’ve sort of made me understand...sort of.
    It's that and also just not a very good line, so it's poor execution on top of poor characterization.

    What even is vegetative injustice? I know she means "what injustice transgressed upon plants," but vegetative can refer (and colloquially usually DOES) more often to a state, usually of insufficient mental capacity; being a vegetable. It's not usually a modifier, so it just sounds a little weird. I'm being extremely pedantic about that, I'll admit. This is perhaps where context would help, I don't know if Swampy tees the line up and she's throwing it back at him, but it just sounds so silly which when juxtaposed against her fury comes across incredibly stupid.

    It's just one of those lines where you pull back and think "what am I reading?"

    Like the first time you refer to Aquaman's brother Orm's moniker, "Ocean Master" in idle conversation. You take a step back and think "he really calls himself Ocean Master, doesn't he?" because it's just so silly you can't take it seriously. Props to Wilson owning the role in the movie. I'm sure there are takes of him saying that and laughing.

    "So then Wonder Woman kicked the plant guy really angry and screamed..." you get the idea. I love silly comics, but when you're trying to sell silly as badass it usually falls flat unless it's reveling in it. This was supposed to be a "F--K YEAH, WONDER WOMAN" moment and it just drops with a thud.

    Just my take. I can't speak for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    I don’t understand why this line should particularly rankle either. Maybe I’m reading “Babies, babies, babies” in my head with a different delivery than you are.
    I read it as a send up of the cliche where moms only want you to make them little grandkiddies. I think the outrage is that it doesn't sound like Hippolyta. It's certainly weird, but I read it as her trying to be funny while showing she approves in that annoying way parents and grandparents ask your new significant other when you're getting married if they like them. Her expression certainly is a very dry delivery of the line.

    If that's in character or not is obviously up to the beholder based on their reading experience. I don't think I'd have written Poly saying that, but she also is the only Amazon to know what it was like to raise a child so maybe she misses it? Dunno. Like I said, wouldn't have done it myself.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-23-2021 at 07:51 PM.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    I don’t understand why this line should particularly rankle either. Maybe I’m reading “Babies, babies, babies” in my head with a different delivery than you are.
    I love Hippolyta, she's one of my main draws to Wonder Woman's mythos and that's not something I could ever imagine her saying, especially in that manner.

  12. #132
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I read it as a send up of the cliche where moms only want you to make them little grandkiddies. I think the outrage is that it doesn't sound like Hippolyta. It's certainly weird, but I read it as her trying to be funny while showing she approves in that annoying way parents and grandparents ask your new significant other when you're getting married if they like them. Her expression certainly is a very dry delivery of the line.

    If that's in character or not is obviously up to the beholder based on their reading experience. I don't think I'd have written Poly saying that, but she also is the only Amazon to know what it was like to raise a child so maybe she misses it? Dunno. Like I said, wouldn't have done it myself.
    That’s how I read it also. Delivered with regal authority and a twinkle in the eye acknowledging the joke.

    It works for me. Hippolyta is, after all, the only Amazon who wanted a child so badly that she prayed to her patron goddess to bring one to life.
    I only support clay origins.

  13. #133
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Azzarello run is what got me into Wonder Woman. I enjoyed his books like 100 Bullets and his run on Hellblazer so I followed him to Wonder Woman. I enjoyed what he did on the book a lot. I felt that the villains he created for it were weak and lacking personality. I still think it's an amazing read.

    As for worst, I never liked how Geoff Johns writes her in his Justice League run or in cross overs. Her trademark compassion gets put to the side under his pen.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Never understood why people carp on "vegetative injustice" so much when it's nowhere near as bad as Batman's "Bees, my God" or for me Hippolyta's "Babies, babies, babies".

    HIPPOLYTA babies.jpg
    Those lines are criticized too.

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, but the follow up to that was her having zero regrets in the second game and being Batman’s punching bag, twice.

    And Taylor deciding the reason she was evil was because a man was mean to her.
    I’m still in awe of how stupid that origin is, and how it makes zero sense. She kills Steve because he’s a Nazi and she hates Nazis. Ok, why the hell is she on Superman’s side then? He’s a fascist, he’s got his swastika logo, his stormtroopers, his concentration camps, etc, yet not only is Wondy ok with this but she keeps egging him on? It just so perfectly showcases that even with the “It’s an Elseworld” excuse, nothing about how this world is built makes any sense. It’s all just one stupid excuse to get Batman and Superman fighting.

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