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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post


    The spear went right through the both of them. And this was after he'd shrugged off hits from Diana in god mode.





    You're acting as if she killed or permanently maimed him. He'd been sexually harassing her since the moment they met and talking him out of it hadn't worked.

    Sorry, I'm still not buying what you and Azzarello are selling. There was no excuse for that in my book. I guess we can agree to disagree from here on out.
    Currently Reading: Crime Syndicate, Justice League, Sensational Wonder Woman, Suicide Squad, The Other History of the DC Universe, & Wonder Woman.

  2. #62

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    Basically what I get from this thread is that everyone who wrote WW and are not named Greg Rucka or George Perez are the worst WW writers lol.
    Last edited by Project Initiative Cascada; 01-21-2021 at 08:07 AM.
    Emma Frost, Rogue, Felicia Hardy, Helena Bertinelli, Allison Blaire, Barbara Gordon, Monica Rambeau, Carol Danvers, Illyana Rasputin, Ororo Munroe, Harleen Quinzel, Lorna Dane, Irene Adler, Kate Kane, Rachel Grey Summers, Jean Grey, Diana Prince, Barbara Ann Minerva, Donna Troy, Jennifer Walters, Gwen Stacy, Wanda Maximoff = PERFECTION!

  3. #63
    Fantastic Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Brian Azzarello:
    Daddy-Zeus, rapist Amazons, clearly more interested in the gods and other characters than Diana herself...just a wrong-headed approach to her mythos. Luckily, most of it has been retconned away, but some things still linger.

    James Robinson:
    Characterizing Diana as a dumb brute, shilling Jason and Zeus, complete botching of Grail and the concept of "dark" gods invading. The fact that he totally misread the No Man's Land scene from the movie (interpreting it as Diana's "lust for battle" instead of just wanting to help people as she plainly says multiple times) illustrates how off the mark he was with her character.
    The nadir for me was when she needed information from Lashina and Mad Harriet, threw the Lasso aside, said she'd rather beat it out of them...and lost. Like...aside from how out of character that is for her...was he deliberately trying to make Diana look as stupid as possible there?

    Tom Taylor:
    Injustice is, without a doubt, one of the most odious interpretations of Diana's character and there's only so much blame you can lay at Netherrealm Studios. Then there's the slap in the face that was DCeased. By the way, not enough is said about how awfully he portrays Diana's power/skill level. He'll hype her up a good deal, but when it comes down to it, he has her get dropped in embarrassing fashion (or make a fool of herself like accidentally killing Huntress in Injustice). The greatest warrior in the DC universe...murdered with one punch. A deadly unstoppable zombie...just teach Mary Marvel a few months of martial arts and she's done.
    In Taylor's hands, Diana's a big fish in a small pond who gets quickly put in her place when she dares challenge the heavy hitters.

    Peter Tomasi:
    I have to include him for this page alone...

    Wonder Woman should never, ever, EVER need ANYONE to tell her to protect people.

    Bruce Timm (and the general JLU crew):
    No idea what to do with her and couldn't have cared less. So we got saddled with a stuck-up snob who only lightened up when she started crushing on the almighty Bat. No attention or care paid to her mythos, rogues, or even her personal life. Did this Diana even have a life outside the Justice League? No wonder no one cared when she went off to live with the Justice Lords in Batman Beyond.
    DCAU team only cared about the rogues they could fetishize... Giganta not wearing pants. Cheetah and Batman kissing (not gonna lie though, I thought that was funny). They also popularized the misconception that Cheetah is just a woman with "cheetah powers" and not a mortal who got her powers from a God and can fight toe-to-toe with Wonder Woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Frank Miller:
    His take on Diana probably too over-the-top to be taken seriously, but I include because he seems to have a distressing fascination with the idea that she can only love a man (usually Superman) who "conquers" her. He clearly thinks it's empowering (I guess) but it's really gross.

    Joss Whedon:
    We got a taste of his take on Diana with Justice League...which wasn't great. She's rendered obsolete by Superman, is the humorless den mother for Aquaman to ogle and Flash to fall into her cleavage, and--of course--flirting with Batman.
    Maybe it shouldn't count since it didn't get made, but then there's the draft of his Wonder Woman script and...wow, we really dodged a bullet. Unless you would've liked her big screen debut to consist of Steve smugly condescending her and at times outright berating her when she screws up (by not listening to him). Oh yeah, and there's the "erotic Amazon dance" she would've used to distract the bad guys.

    Zack Snyder:
    Honestly, who's surprised this guy is in love with the vision of Wonder Woman as a "hardcore warrior" who collects severed heads as trophies? There's also the "walked away from mankind a hundred years ago" corner her painted Patty Jenkins into, so we got a Diana who's been around since World War I, but no one knows about her because she was supposed to give up on humanity in her first frickin' movie. She's still going to get her ass handed to her by Superman, but apparently chopping Steppenwolf's head off (after Superman does all the work) will make up for that. And slaughtered Amazons.
    At least Zack was very supportive of Patty's view of Wonder Woman. Most of these other writers would have tried to force her to stay as warrior woman, or treat her as a stab-first ask-questions-later femi-nazi who hates men or humanity as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Geoff Johns:
    As far back as 2003...maybe earlier...I thought Johns couldn't write Wonder Woman properly to save his life. Consistently joyless, nagging, aloof, stuck-up, and at times hypocritical. Often banging on how she isn't human and therefore doesn't understand humans. Took all the nuance and context Greg Rucka crafted for Diana's position on killing bad guys and flushed it down the toilet, reducing her to "the one that chops heads off." Then the New 52 hit and we got his Justice League where she was also an angry brute who responds to every situation by hitting it with a sword in addition to a stuck-up, aloof snob.
    The fact that Geoff Johns was DC's golden boy and had such a hand in the company's direction with crossovers and events and the multiple animated movies based on his works (specifically Flashpoint and his New 52 Justice League run...so many fans out there know Wonder Woman best based on his writing and that's mortifying. The long-term damage he's inflicted on Diana is immeasurable and we're going to be feeling it for years.
    Yeah I agree with this list.

  4. #64
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    What editorial mandates were forced upon Gail Simone?
    In particular, as I recall, the Genocide reveal was supposed to be Knockout from Secret Six who had been killed by Infinity-Man.

    This was an approved storyline, but halfway through the arc, editorial had decided that all the New Gods needed to remain dead for a plotline, so Gail was told that she could not use Knockout. This then forced Gail to have to change the entire origin and backstory for Genocide in mid-plot.

    I remember there was more to it than that, and similar things were happening to other writers (George Perez, for example, was on Superman and had to re-write and re-draw entire issues because of what was going on in Action despite having editorial approval for his work, which led to him leaving the title)

  5. #65
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Project Initiative Cascada View Post
    Basically what I get from this thread is that everyone who wrote WW and are not named Greg Rucka or George Perez are the worst WW writers lol.
    Not really. All the ones being mentioned have good reasons to be considered bad WW writers. While people such as Gail Simone. Phil Jimenez, Orlando among others are not being listed as bad WW writers. They weren't the best runs from the character, but they were far from bad.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Not really. All the ones being mentioned have good reasons to be considered bad WW writers. While people such as Gail Simone. Phil Jimenez, Orlando among others are not being listed as bad WW writers. They weren't the best runs from the character, but they were far from bad.
    Gail Simone's run was. She's a great writer but her Wonder Woman stank.

  7. #67
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Project Initiative Cascada View Post
    Basically what I get from this thread is that everyone who wrote WW and are not named Greg Rucka or George Perez are the worst WW writers lol.
    That's not true. Marston is also loved.

    But for real, I don't think many people would put Jimenez, Orlando, Luke, Messner-Loebs, or Simone (woops, just saw Koriand'r above me..) on the "Worst" list. They're just not cited as the best as often as Rucka or Perez.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    In particular, as I recall, the Genocide reveal was supposed to be Knockout from Secret Six who had been killed by Infinity-Man.

    This was an approved storyline, but halfway through the arc, editorial had decided that all the New Gods needed to remain dead for a plotline, so Gail was told that she could not use Knockout. This then forced Gail to have to change the entire origin and backstory for Genocide in mid-plot.

    I remember there was more to it than that, and similar things were happening to other writers (George Perez, for example, was on Superman and had to re-write and re-draw entire issues because of what was going on in Action despite having editorial approval for his work, which led to him leaving the title)
    I'm sure this isn't the only other mandate, but Gail was also not allowed to use Rucka's reimagining of the gods.

  9. #69
    Fantastic Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Not really. All the ones being mentioned have good reasons to be considered bad WW writers. While people such as Gail Simone. Phil Jimenez, Orlando among others are not being listed as bad WW writers. They weren't the best runs from the character, but they were far from bad.
    Yeah, I feel like Simone was one of the few people who could balance between peaceful Wonder Woman and warrior Wonder Woman. I feel like Orlando always comes in at the tail end of a bad WW run and gets stuck cleaning up other writers messes before he can start his own stuff.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I thought the main impediments in Simone’s run was she inherited a mess from Infinite Crisis/Amazons Attack. There’s stories I don’t like like Genocide arc dragging on too long but there was more I enjoyed of it than disliked.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member blanchett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The problem is though that Azzarello's version goes in the complete opposite direction. And of the previous versions, the Amazons were overall good people that didn't trust the outside world and needed to get over that bias, but they had good reason to have it in the first place considering how badly things went for them before. Paradise Island should be more a thing that has a lot of positive stuff to offer the outside world but isn't totally "complete" until it becomes more inclusive and opens its borders. But we've seen that go badly for the Amazons when they give it a chance, like in Perez's run when Circe and the Bana tribe framed them as murderers, and in Rucka's where all the nations in the world wanted access to their tech while offering nothing in return, and threatening their desired neutrality.

    Azz's version of the Amazons go from being good people with some uncomfortable feelings regarding the outside world, to murdering helpless unarmed men and killing male babies. Both them and the Perez Amazons didn't have advancements, but at least the Perez ones were good people. The combo of the Amazons being stuck in the bronze age and being baby killers means they have nothing of value to offer the world and it is baffling they produced someone like Diana. Marston's subverting the Amazons myth in the 40s is somehow more progressive than Azzarello essentially playing it straight in 2011.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I mean, it makes it rather hard to believe someone like Diana would even come from society like Azz’s Amazons and also notable that seemingly all the important stuff about her came from the male figures in her life while the traditional female figures got thrown under the bus or deemphasized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I've never understood the idea that just because Diana is the main hero she is the only character, let alone the only Amazon that should be sympathetic and heroic.
    What I liked about it really enforced that it's Wonder Woman's choice to be how she is. She wasn't defined by prejudices of her parent society because she chose not to be. She chooses to be a good person. To me that was more powerful.

    I know lots of people didn't like it online but I thought it was a great run.

    Even the idea of them being stagnant as a society makes sense to me. Why would they evolve if it's the same people living on the island forever? I don't hate them as a concept. I just don't like the idea of a isolationist, gender biased, MONARCHY being seen as progressive and forward thinking. It just baffles me but to each their own.

    I would like to take this opportunity to announce my new ongoing Wonder Woman series

  12. #72
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    You don't need to vilify Diana's parent culture to show how she chooses to be who she is.

    I also would like to point out how Azzarello also how the story ended with no changes whatsoever to Olympus's culture despite how toxic and stagnant it is. After everything that happened, Zeus is back on the throne again. It's as much a monarchy as the Amazons (btw what is it with you putting that word in all caps) but apparently doesn't need to change at all. Azzarello also conveniently ignores Zeus's misogyny and disregard for people's consent in his run.

    If you look at the most horrible things done in the world, they were almost never by isolationist nations. The worse the Amazons did prior to this was stay on their island and mind their own business. But Zeus's numerous murders and rapes don't deserve to be punished.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-21-2021 at 12:40 PM.

  13. #73
    Incredible Member blanchett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You don't need to vilify Diana's parent culture to show how she chooses to be who she is.

    I also would like to point out how Azzarello also how the story ended with no changes whatsoever to Olympus's culture despite how toxic and stagnant it is. After everything that happened, Zeus is back on the throne again. It's as much a monarchy as the Amazons (btw what is it with you putting that word in all caps) but apparently doesn't need to change at all. Azzarello also conveniently ignores Zeus's misogyny and disregard for people's consent in his run.

    If you look at the most horrible things done in the world, they were almost never by isolationist nations. The worse the Amazons did prior to this was stay on their island and mind their own business. But Zeus's numerous murders and rapes don't deserve to be punished.
    Were we ever supposed to think the Olympians are a good society? They are petty, disturbed beautiful amoral monsters. I thought that shone through in Azzarello's run. I never defended them.

    The difference is we are expected to buy into the Amazons being a utopian society despite it's obvious flaws. Utopia would not be a monarchy with a queen ruling without elections for thousands of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If you look at the most horrible things done in the world, they were almost never by isolationist nations.
    North Korea.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Were we ever supposed to think the Olympians are a good society? They are petty, disturbed beautiful amoral monsters. I thought that shone through in Azzarello's run. I never defended them.

    The difference is we are expected to buy into the Amazons being a utopian society despite it's obvious flaws. Utopia would not be a monarchy with a queen ruling without elections for thousands of years.
    The Amazons have not been a utopia in decades, so this strawman doesn't work. No one is asking for them to be perfect. We're asking for them to be sympathetic with some flaws like any other society. Hell, they had a democracy at one point, something that is conspicuously absent from Olympus at the end of the story. The book doesn't even portray monarchy as a bad thing, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up.

    North Korea.
    I said almost never for a reason. And that's to their own citizens not people outside their country.

  15. #75
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    Anyway, I don't know if Azzarello is the absolute worst WW writer even if I largely don't care for his run. I'd put Kanigher, O'Neil and Johns up there with him.

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