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  1. #76
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    What I liked about it really enforced that it's Wonder Woman's choice to be how she is. She wasn't defined by prejudices of her parent society because she chose not to be. She chooses to be a good person. To me that was more powerful.

    I know lots of people didn't like it online but I thought it was a great run.

    Even the idea of them being stagnant as a society makes sense to me. Why would they evolve if it's the same people living on the island forever? I don't hate them as a concept. I just don't like the idea of a isolationist, gender biased, MONARCHY being seen as progressive and forward thinking. It just baffles me but to each their own.

    I would like to take this opportunity to announce my new ongoing Wonder Woman series
    It's stupid to call it a monarchy considering the fact that Hippolyta is the only queen they ever had.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    It's stupid to call it a monarchy considering the fact that Hippolyta is the only queen they ever had.
    Actually according to Rebirth there were several queens before her, we just don't know the full story about them yet.

  3. #78
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Actually according to Rebirth there were several queens before her, we just don't know the full story about them yet.
    Yup, Hippolyta is supposedly the tenth queen of the amazons. So are at least 9 potential story lines involving the amazons for DC to ruin.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    That's like objectively wrong.
    Everyone's entitled to their opinion. The same way my least favorite WW writers are George Perez and Phil Jimenez.

    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    What I liked about it really enforced that it's Wonder Woman's choice to be how she is. She wasn't defined by prejudices of her parent society because she chose not to be. She chooses to be a good person. To me that was more powerful.

    I know lots of people didn't like it online but I thought it was a great run.

    Even the idea of them being stagnant as a society makes sense to me. Why would they evolve if it's the same people living on the island forever? I don't hate them as a concept. I just don't like the idea of a isolationist, gender biased, MONARCHY being seen as progressive and forward thinking. It just baffles me but to each their own.

    I would like to take this opportunity to announce my new ongoing Wonder Woman series
    Agreed on all counts.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Even the idea of them being stagnant as a society makes sense to me. Why would they evolve if it's the same people living on the island forever? I don't hate them as a concept. I just don't like the idea of a isolationist, gender biased, MONARCHY being seen as progressive and forward thinking. It just baffles me but to each their own.
    Why wouldn't people that live thousands of years want to continue to learn?

    As for their "isolationist, gender biased," society - I see it as more of a sanctuary. Do you think shelters for battered women are a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Utopia would not be a monarchy with a queen ruling without elections for thousands of years.

    North Korea.
    Monarchies are not inherently evil, nor are democracies inherently good. It's much more about the leaders themselves than the form of government. So, your North Korea example is quite flawed because there is no eveidence that Hippolyta is anything like the Kim family.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatoskun View Post
    Greg Rucka
    I'm curious, what is it about Rucka's WW run that makes it the worst for you?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I loved Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman. Probably because I was more familiar with Azzarello at the time than Wonder Woman? I'd be interested in hearing from people who despise that run if they think it would be just as bad if it wasn't connected to the Wonder Woman character at all.
    Like others here have said better than I, I don't like some of the driving decisions of Azzarello's WW run mainly because I don't think they are a good fit for the characters and themes of WW (as I see them). For instance, Azzarello's depiction of the Amazons is fine elsewhere, but it's not what I want for Diana's mother and upbringing.

    The quality of the writing itself (and the art) is quite good.

  8. #83
    Incredible Member Amazon Swordsman's Avatar
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    How do you make Wonder Woman the biological child of Zeus and not make her stronger than Superman?

  9. #84
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post

    The difference is we are expected to buy into the Amazons being a utopian society despite it's obvious flaws. Utopia would not be a monarchy with a queen ruling without elections for thousands of years.
    So here's the issue - Azzarello showed the Amazons as being a dark, regressed society of murderers.

    But then he showed the Manazons as a peaceful society of mastersmith/weapons makers.

    So we can't have a progressive, all female society of immortals, but we can have a utopian society of brothers of the forge working happily for Hephaestus.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Gail Simone's run was. She's a great writer but her Wonder Woman stank.
    I was at work before but now I'm off and can elaborate.

    Nobody, absolutely nobody was clamoring for the Gorilla Knights as Wonder Woman's supporting cast. They didn't really fit in, took up too much space and were completely unnecessary.

    Diana's voice was so formal she sounded stiff and often pretentious. It didn't mix well with the attempts at zany humor that I didn't find funny.

    Some plots were confusing and didn't make much sense. To this day I don't understand Alkyone's motivation for kidnapping the queen she had sworn to protect. I get that she saw Diana as "the dragon" who came to disrupt Paradise and destroy the Amazons but why would threatening Hippolyta and killing her daughter make things any better on Themyscira?

    I hated how Diana lied to Tom Tressor for months and pretended to love him only so she could get pregnant with his child. It was completely out of character.

    Speaking of OCC, I can't picture Hippolyta meeting Diana's boyfriend for the first time and making him an honorary Amazon just to have "babies, babies, babies!" populate the island. She's never come across as a future grandmother going out of her way to pressure her daughter into having children.

    Nor would Artemis burst into tears and beg for Diana's forgiveness. She's a stoic tough cookie that wouldn't so easily renege on her resentment because she was recently rescued by her rival.

    The stories swung wildly from genre to genre like things were being thrown at a wall to see what sticks. The pacing was all wrong.

    There's lots more I could say, but this isn't a bash Gail Simone thread and she really is one of my favorite comic book writers. There were too many problems to fix, she was interfered with and for me her usual proclivities didn't coincide well with the franchise, but all that wasn't all her fault.

  11. #86
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amazon Swordsman View Post
    How do you make Wonder Woman the biological child of Zeus and not make her stronger than Superman?
    Because DC needs to maintain Superman as the top dog superhero in their line up (despite having a several heroes that puts Superman's powers to shame). I'm also of the belief that there is a small but vocal sub-section of comic nerds that would flip and cry "SJW FEMINSIM RUINS SUPERMAN!!!!" if Diana is portrayed as more competent or powerful then him, and I only have to look at the one thread from a while back where Diana moved a rock that the league had trouble with or whatever to prove that point. Really though, she doesn't need to be more powerful or even 100% equal to him for me to be happy with her power level, but she needs to be really dang close, I mean like at least 95%.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  12. #87
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Everyone's entitled to their opinion. The same way my least favorite WW writers are George Perez and Phil Jimenez.
    Heresy! Absolute heresy!

  13. #88
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    My top 10 worst Wonder Woman writers:


    1.) Brian Azzarello

    ...

    The stink he left on Wonder Woman, the Amazons, Orion, and the Greek Gods still lingers to this day. He tarnished these characters in ways that no other creator has. Diana crunching testicles, the Amazons being revealed as man-killing, baby-trading sex pirates, Orion being portrayed as a chauvinist pig, and the Greek Gods all having their own deviant sides were disgusting stains on Wonder Woman's mythos.
    With Azzarello, the character of the book he wrote was such that I doubt it even ought to count as a Wonder Woman book. It simply did not strike me as a good faith effort to come to grips with her history or lore, and in so far as anything like that appeared in it, his attitude was entirely condescending and destructive. That said, the atrocious self indulgence of his long form 'storytelling' surely merits some kind of negative superlative. Even Finch's run, what little I read of it, seemed to move at a reasonable pace by comparison. Her biggest problem was that she was handed Azzarello's dog's breakfast and having read it concluded reasonably that she was supposed to be writing a horror title and that the nominal lead character was basically empty and devoid of characterization.

    Apart from that: Mark Waid. Kingdom Come is Diana's Dark Knight Returns: an Elseworld that should have been left as an Elseworld, and that has turned into a bad influence on the way later writers have seen and portrayed the character. Waid's Diana is an embittered failure who turns to violence. The sword and the shield start there, I think. The biggest problem with DC is that the appeal of their characters is that it would be awesome to be Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman; but the stories the company seems to want to tell all revolve around how it sucks to be Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman. When DC goes wrong, this is the most basic flaw.
    "At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    Waid's Diana is an embittered failure who turns to violence. The sword and the shield start there, I think.
    I think they started with (Xena really, however for D.C.) Hippolyta in Justice Society but Kingdom Come (1996) may predate that.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post

    Some plots were confusing and didn't make much sense. To this day I don't understand Alkyone's motivation for kidnapping the queen she had sworn to protect. I get that she saw Diana as "the dragon" who came to disrupt Paradise and destroy the Amazons but why would threatening Hippolyta and killing her daughter make things any better on Themyscira?
    It wouldn't. Alkyone's hatred of Diana was irrational to begin with and the story makes that quite clear. It's implied that she's just jealous that Diana wasn't her daughter and is using the safety and betterment of Themyscira as a smokescreen to disguise her true motivations.


    Nor would Artemis burst into tears and beg for Diana's forgiveness. She's a stoic tough cookie that wouldn't so easily renege on her resentment because she was recently rescued by her rival.
    Artemis isn't stoic nor one-dimensional. She also let go of her resentment towards Diana a long time ago.

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