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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    I dont see why it can't be any different with the X Men. They can be written to represent victims of "othering" and sometimes outright bigotry. They can also be written as an elite and dangerous group of individuals that left unchecked can fall into very much the same pitfalls as everyone else does(which seems to be where Hickman is headed).
    Well the complaint is we have seen too many times when the conversation about race, gender and sexuality have the X-Men being used to make certain parts of the fandom comfortable.

    Instead of using those actual folks. Because they DON'T make certain parts of the fandom feel good.

    Your Superman example-yes he is a hidden message about immigration. Yet we still get to see Starfire, Manhunter and other aliens and Supergirl feel that way too. Nobody throws a fit.

    Mutants facing racism-fine. But lets not act like Falcon, Riri, Khan, Falcon 2 and those guys don't face that as well. Yet one attracts backlash.

  2. #137

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    so now that the mutants have Krakoa, is there a mutant language at all? letters, words, numbers? Why should American English dominate things?

  3. #138
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    so now that the mutants have Krakoa, is there a mutant language at all? letters, words, numbers? Why should American English dominate things?
    Yes, there is. They even have a key code for translating the Krakoan language into English letters.
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  4. #139
    Incredible Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Well the complaint is we have seen too many times when the conversation about race, gender and sexuality have the X-Men being used to make certain parts of the fandom comfortable.

    Instead of using those actual folks. Because they DON'T make certain parts of the fandom feel good.

    Your Superman example-yes he is a hidden message about immigration. Yet we still get to see Starfire, Manhunter and other aliens and Supergirl feel that way too. Nobody throws a fit.

    Mutants facing racism-fine. But lets not act like Falcon, Riri, Khan, Falcon 2 and those guys don't face that as well. Yet one attracts backlash.
    Well if Cyclops call out policial vilence, that is ok for many readers. now if Miles do the same, it is more SJW crap on my comics LOL
    With white people on the place of POC/LGBT things get easier to be done and not seen as political

  5. #140
    Spectacular Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Well the complaint is we have seen too many times when the conversation about race, gender and sexuality have the X-Men being used to make certain parts of the fandom comfortable.

    Instead of using those actual folks. Because they DON'T make certain parts of the fandom feel good.

    Your Superman example-yes he is a hidden message about immigration. Yet we still get to see Starfire, Manhunter and other aliens and Supergirl feel that way too. Nobody throws a fit.

    Mutants facing racism-fine. But lets not act like Falcon, Riri, Khan, Falcon 2 and those guys don't face that as well. Yet one attracts backlash.
    I mean I dont disagree but just look at the list you got there. Half of them and most other like them are >20 years in existence if that. X men was ahead of the class in terms of how it featured and wrote minorities. We've only just now gotten some decent representation at all on the Avengers side and beyond. At least that's how I'd read the situation.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    I mean I dont disagree but just look at the list you got there. Half of them and most other like them are >20 years in existence if that. X men was ahead of the class in terms of how it featured and wrote minorities. We've only just now gotten some decent representation at all on the Avengers side and beyond. At least that's how I'd read the situation.
    You gotta have your eyes closed and trying reeeeally hard time read it any other way
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    Last edited by BroHomo; 01-26-2021 at 07:40 PM.
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  7. #142
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    I mean I dont disagree but just look at the list you got there. Half of them and most other like them are >20 years in existence if that. X men was ahead of the class in terms of how it featured and wrote minorities. We've only just now gotten some decent representation at all on the Avengers side and beyond. At least that's how I'd read the situation.
    That's false.

    The X-men didn't include any non-white characters until Sunfire in 1970 (for one issue (#64), as a criminal). It didn't add another until Storm and Thunderbird in Len Wein's all-new, all-different X-Men in 1975.

    The Black Panther and Wyatt Wingfoot predate All New All Different by nine years.
    The Falcon and the Prowler predate it by six years.
    Luke Cage predates it by three years.
    Shang Chi and Bother Voodoo predate it by two years


    X-men was not ahead of the class in any respect.

  8. #143
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    I think it should be both. Minorities in comics should be used to highlight their struggles but the X-Men can also be used for that. Although I think Marvel's writers should be smart with how they use Mutants as an allegory.

  9. #144
    Spectacular Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    That's false.

    The X-men didn't include any non-white characters until Sunfire in 1970 (for one issue (#64), as a criminal). It didn't add another until Storm and Thunderbird in Len Wein's all-new, all-different X-Men in 1975.

    The Black Panther and Wyatt Wingfoot predate All New All Different by nine years.
    The Falcon and the Prowler predate it by six years.
    Luke Cage predates it by three years.
    Shang Chi and Bother Voodoo predate it by two years


    X-men was not ahead of the class in any respect.
    I wasn't referring specifically to first appearances so much as actually telling stories with minority characters as prominent and long time spotlight characters. I will say Shang Chi is a good example but a lot of other characters in the Avengers office were sidekicks or recurring as opposed to main characters like Storm, for a while. Luke Cage and even Shang Chi seemed more like capitalizing on trends(blaxploitation and Bruce lee) than anything else.

  10. #145
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    I wasn't referring specifically to first appearances so much as actually telling stories with minority characters as prominent and long time spotlight characters. I will say Shang Chi is a good example but a lot of other characters in the Avengers office were sidekicks or recurring as opposed to main characters like Storm, for a while. Luke Cage and even Shang Chi seemed more like capitalizing on trends(blaxploitation and Bruce lee) than anything else.

    The only characters that fit your negative description are Shang Chi (barely disguised Bruce Lee rip-off) and Luke Cage (nakedly riding the Blaxploitation wave).

    The others were perennial in Marvel books long before the X was revamped. If the X had been about race, in even the slightest way, it's obvious Stan would have let us know somehow. He was clearly not shy about it elsewhere either as a writer or as an editor-in-chief.

    Nor is he what you'd call a subtle writer. There is literally no subtext in a Stan Lee story or a Stan Lee creation. What you see is what is there. No more. No less.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    That isn't what's under discussion. And no. it's not about racism. it's about "otherness." It's about people who look
    "normal" (white, attractive) but secretly aren't and when their otherness is discovered, they face hostility. That doesn't describe ANY non-white group in the USA and can't be used as a stand-in for our treatment here.
    Jewish people and LGBT fit that description. Stan and Jack may not have been POC but they were from marginalised group, they were Jewish Americans. It heavily impacted their work in comics. There's also more to being from a marginalised group than what race a person is, for example - LGBT.

    Edit: Exactly how it is offensive for the X-men to be a civil rights analog when Stan and Jack being influenced by Nazis trying to commit genocide isn't? And why these metaphors be offensive, the argument that politics in the real world should be avoided in fiction because "it's offensive" completely ignores how fiction is made and that subjects like that not being explored through fiction is good thing.

    Yeah. It's heavy. You don't get to shrug when you've lost the argument and say, "it's just a little thing." it's a big thing.

    You're wrong on these points because of a basic ignorance of the subject you're trying to discus and invoke. It's not my job to educate you about things which are common knowledge and in a world where google exists.
    I'm not asking for an "education" I'm asking for your opinion, which has been avoided like the plague. I don't even know what you think about Malcolm X or MLK at the surface level. I'm not the one "shrugging off' this conversation. To lose an argument requires there to be one, when this subjects just "you're wrong." It's debatable what your opinion on this subject is "common knowledge" since more time has spent on derailing and insulting me than making an actual argument with facts.

    I never said it was "little thing," I can barely get us to have a basic conversation about the civil rights being compared to mutants now I'm being castigated for not having a deep conversation I was denied in the first place.

    "Do your own research" - in other words go on a snipe hunt. No thanks.

    No goal posts have been moved. Saying this is a common internet tactic, put into play when one has over extended one's point and has no facts with which to support it.
    Projection. Once again, back to gaslighting. Making the conversation about the person while avoiding the subject entirely. Again. I've bought up numerous facts, you not agreeing with them does not erase them from reality. It does, however, reveal how thin the argument is against what I'm saying.

    you've made no points. You've parroted a lot of long ago exploded arguments but nothing you've said actually lands for the reasons already outlined.
    I've made numerous points, don't gaslight me. Two of which have been evaded rather than challenged. Nothing lands because that would require my argument to be listened to, and respected like an adult. But I disagree with an opinion so therefore I am wrong. This is about feelings, not facts which is why I never had any hope of having my opinions examined as valid. You don't have to agree with someone's opinions for them to be valid.


    The vampires in TRUE BLOOD do not work as a "minority proxy" either. They work as an allegory for ONE specific minority group and it isn't black or brown people. And they only barely work for the group they seek to analogize.
    Yes? That was my point. Which is what I think is happening with minority metaphors for mutants in X-men. I'm relieved something I've bought up has been acknowledged with my examples rather then writing them off because.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 01-28-2021 at 03:01 AM.

  12. #147
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    I know this thread has been dead for while, but I just want to put my two cents in. I never bought the whole "X-Men represent minorities" thing. I do feel the intentions around that are good, but I don't need a group of mostly white, generally attractive people to tell me how the struggle for civil rights is going. It always seemed like a way for white guys to find a way to empathize with women and PoC without actually reading about the real thing.

    I appreciate the actual diversity of X-Men, which in many respects was way ahead of its time, in including a wide roster of female and non-white characters. Furthermore, I respect how anyone actually did learn more about empathy and the struggle of marginalized groups from reading and watching X-Men, and I wouldn't want to diminish how any actual minority individual could relate the series to their own struggles.

    However, if I'm not mistaken (feel free to correct me), the Avengers were already confronting racism and sexism in their own way before the X-Men did it. Black Panther, Falcon and Ms. Marvel (now Captain Marvel) all directly discussed these topics. They'd probably be awkward and outdated today, but they still spoke to the real issues, not just a comfortable metaphor.

    Also, I feel the Avengers and Spider-Man sides of Marvel are both doing it better than the X-Men nowadays. Characters like Miles Morales and Kamala Khan are among several new ethnically and gender diverse characters dealing with issues of prejudice and discrimination while helping the Marvel Universe progress, and even the older Avengers are being more overtly pro-diversity and pro-social justice now. X-Men have revolved a lot around Wolverine and Cyclops for the last 20 years, and while both characters have their benefits (Wolverine is my favorite X-Men), that doesn't really help the cause of anti-prejudice and civil rights. Maybe I'm a bit off base with that, because I haven't caught up to recent X-Men comics, but honestly the whole "fictional persecution complex" has soured me a bit on the X-Men after seeing other characters do it better.

    The thing is, massive extinction events aren't necessarily how racism works anymore, unless you're referring to events like the Rohingya. Nowadays racism works in things like brutality in law enforcement towards African Americans, or Native American women going missing in large numbers, or even something like political dog whistling against immigrants from Mexico.
    Last edited by Mik; 03-03-2021 at 08:33 AM.

  13. #148
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I know this thread has been dead for while, but I just want to put my two cents in. I never bought the whole "X-Men represent minorities" thing. I do feel the intentions around that are good, but I don't need a group of mostly white, generally attractive people to tell me how the struggle for civil rights is going. It always seemed like a way for white guys to find a way to empathize with women and PoC without actually reading about the real thing.

    I appreciate the actual diversity of X-Men, which in many respects was way ahead of its time, in including a wide roster of female and non-white characters. Furthermore, I respect how anyone actually did learn more about empathy and the struggle of marginalized groups from reading and watching X-Men, and I wouldn't want to diminish how any actual minority individual could relate the series to their own struggles.

    However, if I'm not mistaken (feel free to correct me), the Avengers were already confronting racism and sexism in their own way before the X-Men did it. Black Panther, Falcon and Ms. Marvel (now Captain Marvel) all directly discussed these topics. They'd probably be awkward and outdated today, but they still spoke to the real issues, not just a comfortable metaphor.

    Also, I feel the Avengers and Spider-Man sides of Marvel are both doing it better than the X-Men nowadays. Characters like Miles Morales and Kamala Khan are among several new ethnically and gender diverse characters dealing with issues of prejudice and discrimination while helping the Marvel Universe progress, and even the older Avengers are being more overtly pro-diversity and pro-social justice now. X-Men have revolved a lot around Wolverine and Cyclops for the last 20 years, and while both characters have their benefits (Wolverine is my favorite X-Men), that doesn't really help the cause of anti-prejudice and civil rights. Maybe I'm a bit off base with that, because I haven't caught up to recent X-Men comics, but honestly the whole "fictional persecution complex" has soured me a bit on the X-Men after seeing other characters do it better.

    The thing is, massive extinction events aren't necessarily how racism works anymore, unless you're referring to events like the Rohingya. Nowadays racism works in things like brutality in law enforcement towards African Americans, or Native American women going missing in large numbers, or even something like political dog whistling against immigrants from Mexico.
    Some good points you raise there. I would add that Spider-Man has in the past dealt with more sensitive issues like the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by both criminals and politicians, and has even tackled racism a few times, whether in the form of Hobie Brown, the original Prowler, turning to costumed criminality because his inventive mind was overlooked by employers that didn't believe someone of his skin color could be as smart as he was, or in the form of a politician whose anti-Spider-Man campaign turned out to be a smokescreen for his bigoted beliefs and attitudes about various minorities. Hell, Spider-Man happens to have run into the mutant plight a few times himself, not just in terms of occasional team-ups with the X-Men, but having a mutant classmate at one point who was tormented and attacked by Empire State University's local chapter of the Friends of Humanity.

    Going to the Avengers for a moment, you are definitely correct that the likes of Black Panther, Sam Wilson, and Carol Danvers have had stories dealing with racial and gender prejudice in their past comics. Specifically, Sam Wilson's initial membership in the Avengers was a (somewhat negative) commentary on affirmative action, while Carol in her initial stories had to deal with being constantly underestimated and dismissed by those around her on account of her gender, and Black Panther even took on the Ku Klux Klan during one of his visits to America. In regards to how the Avengers dealt with the mutant plight, though, my general impression was that while they were largely sympathetic toward "law-abiding" mutants, or mutants that they recognized and respected as fellow heroes, their otherwise "hands-off" attitude might have indirectly contributed to or exacerbated the problem, given the understanding that silence in the face of injustices visited upon marginalized peoples (both in fiction and reality) effectively meant complicity in those injustices.

    As for mass genocide no longer being how racism works, at least in America, it's not for lack of trying on the part of some who increasingly openly advocate for that level of violence and view it as (a) necessary (evil) for the sake of "preserving the country," or some other deluded self-justification. That said, you are right that racism enacted on masses of people tends to work more through systems and institutions than declaring "open season" on marginalized groups. Again, though, not for lack of trying on some people's parts nowadays.
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  14. #149
    Mighty Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    so now that the mutants have Krakoa, is there a mutant language at all? letters, words, numbers? Why should American English dominate things?
    Not really a language. All they did was make a new font. The letters are a one-to-one to the Latin alphabet and the spellings are exactly the same as English words. We don't know about pronunciation but it's just English with a new font.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Some good points you raise there. I would add that Spider-Man has in the past dealt with more sensitive issues like the exploitation of undocumented immigrants by both criminals and politicians, and has even tackled racism a few times, whether in the form of Hobie Brown, the original Prowler, turning to costumed criminality because his inventive mind was overlooked by employers that didn't believe someone of his skin color could be as smart as he was, or in the form of a politician whose anti-Spider-Man campaign turned out to be a smokescreen for his bigoted beliefs and attitudes about various minorities. Hell, Spider-Man happens to have run into the mutant plight a few times himself, not just in terms of occasional team-ups with the X-Men, but having a mutant classmate at one point who was tormented and attacked by Empire State University's local chapter of the Friends of Humanity.

    Going to the Avengers for a moment, you are definitely correct that the likes of Black Panther, Sam Wilson, and Carol Danvers have had stories dealing with racial and gender prejudice in their past comics. Specifically, Sam Wilson's initial membership in the Avengers was a (somewhat negative) commentary on affirmative action, while Carol in her initial stories had to deal with being constantly underestimated and dismissed by those around her on account of her gender, and Black Panther even took on the Ku Klux Klan during one of his visits to America. In regards to how the Avengers dealt with the mutant plight, though, my general impression was that while they were largely sympathetic toward "law-abiding" mutants, or mutants that they recognized and respected as fellow heroes, their otherwise "hands-off" attitude might have indirectly contributed to or exacerbated the problem, given the understanding that silence in the face of injustices visited upon marginalized peoples (both in fiction and reality) effectively meant complicity in those injustices.

    As for mass genocide no longer being how racism works, at least in America, it's not for lack of trying on the part of some who increasingly openly advocate for that level of violence and view it as (a) necessary (evil) for the sake of "preserving the country," or some other deluded self-justification. That said, you are right that racism enacted on masses of people tends to work more through systems and institutions than declaring "open season" on marginalized groups. Again, though, not for lack of trying on some people's parts nowadays.
    I agree on the not for lack of trying part. We just saw a bunch of angry bigots assail the American Capitol.

    My point was more about the various extinction events X-Men have faced during the last 20 years. If the goal is to represent mistreatment of PoC, I don't feel that's working. There's no discussion of things like intersectionality or privilege.

    Plus, I don't feel they really need to do it anymore when PoC can speak for themselves. I wanna see more actual PoC heroes beat bigoted villains!

    The Avengers being hands off is a plot hole, but to me it's really due to the nature of keeping X-Men and Avengers comics in separate sub-worlds of the Marvel Universe. It's always been a plot hole, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily the Avengers fault when the real-world division bleeds into the fictional universe.

    I will say Avengers do much better with black and mixed representation, both are so-so with Asian representation, and X-Men are better with Native American representation. X-Men also have plenty of female characters but personally I like the female Avengers more.
    Last edited by Mik; 03-03-2021 at 05:04 PM.

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